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Smoke alarms, mains wired, who replaces internal back-up battery, landlord or tenant?

Covering Market, Trends, and Practical (but see LEMON-AID for Building & DIY)
Itsallaguess
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Re: Smoke alarms, mains wired, who replaces internal back-up battery, landlord or tenant?

#520645

Postby Itsallaguess » August 8th, 2022, 6:20 am

DiamondEcho wrote:
Scanning back through the topic, this statement from the agent still stands out: 'I appreciate you may be uncomfortable doing this, but if you are struggling you should arrange for this to be carried out by a contractor at your own expense.

Really!


Apologies if this has already been covered DE, but given the mains-electric aspect of this particular problem, can I ask if you're in receipt of an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) for your tenancy?

From the UK Government website -

Landlords must obtain a report (usually an Electrical Installation Condition Report or EICR) from the person conducting the [electrical] inspection and test which explains its outcomes and any investigative or remedial work required.

Landlords must then supply a copy of this report to the tenant within 28 days of the inspection and test, to a new tenant before they occupy the premises, and to any prospective tenant within 28 days of receiving a request for the report.

If the report requires remedial work or further investigation, landlords must provide written confirmation that the work has been carried out to their tenant and to the local authority within 28 days of completing the work.

Landlords must retain a copy of the report to give to the inspector and tester who will undertake the next inspection and test.


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

If you've not got a copy of that up-to-date EICR, then I'd keep that fact in your back pocket for now if you wish to pursue 'softer' means of resetting expectations around your current position, but if those more moderate means of discussion turn out to be fruitless, then as a final throw of the dice here, and certainly before I went anywhere near any landlord-owned electrical consumer unit, I'd be making sure that I was in possession of an up to date and valid EICR, and importantly, that it contained no requirement for 'remedial work' that might render the current electrical installation unsuitable for a tenant to go anywhere near...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Itsallaguess
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Re: Smoke alarms, mains wired, who replaces internal back-up battery, landlord or tenant?

#520646

Postby Itsallaguess » August 8th, 2022, 6:54 am

modellingman wrote:
Provided the consumer unit is labelled up correctly, isolating the electrical circuit for the alarm system is no more difficult than turning off the power to a light fitting to allow a bulb in the fitting to be changed.


It's not that it's particularly 'difficult', but that the required step to isolate via the electrical consumer unit hopefully adds weight to the argument that as a mains-supply issue, it moves further outside the clearly worded tenancy agreement that only stipulates 'battery operated smoke alarms' being the responsibility of the tenant...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

TahiPanasDua
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Re: Smoke alarms, mains wired, who replaces internal back-up battery, landlord or tenant?

#520670

Postby TahiPanasDua » August 8th, 2022, 8:59 am

Linked detectors are now mandatory in Scotland but there are as yet no penalties for non-compliance.

I live in a low rise block of flats with a lift so it is popular with the well-to-do elderly. As flat owners, we are responsible for installing the new detectors within the flats and the factor, as property managers are known here, is responsible for common areas. So far so normal.

However, again as usual, the factor provides fire insurance for the building excluding individual owners' contents which are the flat owners responsibility. I asked the factor about the validity of the communal insurance in the event of a fire in a flat without the new detectors. I would imagine the insurer could possibly refuse to pay up if the damage was as a result of failure to comply with the law.

I asked the factor about this and he said the insurers had said they would, for the present, still cover such an event but this is verbal and the future is unclear.

Anyone got any suggestions?

Totally off topic, the flats are insured to the hilt, thankfully covering specialist terrorism insurance as the suburbs of Stirling are likely high risk terrorist targets. Such insurance couldn't possibly be the result of the factor getting 20% of all premiums in addition to his monthly fee?

TP2

dealtn
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Re: Smoke alarms, mains wired, who replaces internal back-up battery, landlord or tenant?

#520721

Postby dealtn » August 8th, 2022, 12:42 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
modellingman wrote:
Provided the consumer unit is labelled up correctly, isolating the electrical circuit for the alarm system is no more difficult than turning off the power to a light fitting to allow a bulb in the fitting to be changed.


It's not that it's particularly 'difficult', but that the required step to isolate via the electrical consumer unit hopefully adds weight to the argument that as a mains-supply issue, it moves further outside the clearly worded tenancy agreement that only stipulates 'battery operated smoke alarms' being the responsibility of the tenant...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


To be clear, firstly, I am a landlord and in this situation I would attend to this myself. However reliance on a wired mains electric system with legitimate battery back up not being "battery operated", or similar reliance on isolating a circuit at the Consumer Unit as "interference" is misplaced in my opinion.

modellingman
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Re: Smoke alarms, mains wired, who replaces internal back-up battery, landlord or tenant?

#530523

Postby modellingman » September 18th, 2022, 8:48 am

And the back up battery was replaced by?

DiamondEcho
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Re: Smoke alarms, mains wired, who replaces internal back-up battery, landlord or tenant?

#530625

Postby DiamondEcho » September 18th, 2022, 7:25 pm

modellingman wrote:And the back up battery was replaced by?


None of the batteries in the four detector-heads have been replaced to date. No heads have beeped even once, never mind triggered into the shattering chaos of 'full alarm system across floors going off' in 40-odd days now. That suggests to me that the issue does not appear to be one of back-up batteries requiring replacement, where the heads would beep every 45 seconds. However during this time we still don't know what the status of the alarm system is and half expect it to go randomly hay-wire again sometime.

The actions since the original week or so of chaos since last discussed here and then to date have been:
- As part of the step-by-step fault-finding process with the LLs electrician I'd removed the detector-head at the ground floor and self-tested the internal battery, but the system continued to trigger elsewhere.
- I replaced that head (no battery changed here or elsewhere). Shifted my focus to the 1st floor and removed that detector head. Self-tested the battery which functioned correctly, and left the detector head detached but adjacent to it's ceiling fitting.
- I reported to the LLs agent that the issue did not appear to concern batteries internal to the detector heads, as the heads (all of them, atached and detached from the ceiling) had red LEDs blinking every 45 seconds indicating the batteries were OK.
- The agent insisted my replacing all the internal batteries was a pre-cursor to them taken any further action.
- [Having thought, a) this is the LL trying to make their problem/expense mine again, and b) my replacing back-up batteries might simply mask a mains power-supply issue. And despite that being convenient to the LL it wouldn't solve the root of the problem which might recur any time (when the 1st floor detector head is returned into it's fitting). c) What if the house burns down later of something wrong I have done for which I'm not qualified? d) What if I damage one of these detector heads which are no longer manufactured?...
- Being especially irked at the suggestion I should pay for an electrician if I was uncomfortable isolating circuits on the consumer unit etc I contacted the local Environmental Health Dept. That was simply to ask, quoting relevant clauses in the TA and from the council's own website, whether in their view what the agent was requiring me to do was reasonable.
- EH logged my question and without asking recorded it as a complaint with a case ref#. Saying that unless the issue was resolved by the LL forthwith they would speak to the agent.
- They then were away for 2+ weeks according to their e-mailed auto-reply, and during this time the alarms did not ring. Hence it did not feel quite justified escalating it back for a colleague to pick up.
- Last week with the EH officer due back at work I gave a full e-mailed re-cap of the situation to date. He said he would speak to the agent.
- The next day the agent called, apparently highly agitated. He repeated (yet again) asking if I'd changed the batteries. I repeated that there is nothing to suggest the batteries are at fault. In fact from the step-by-step process guided by the LLs own electrician it currently appears that it is likely a mains supply issue to the currently still detached detector head at the 1st floor. He said he would relay that to the LL.
- On Saturday the agent e-mailed saying the LL wished to visit that afternoon to change the batteries herself. [I've yet to reply to this].
- I forwarded a copy of that to the Council-EH and asked them if they would advise.

ps. Given the alarms haven't rung since 8-August my current thinking is the mains cabling is at fault. The council-EH say they lean towards agreeing that. FWIW This might tie in with the separate fact that there has been historic (before our time) rain ingress and flooding in through a top-floor terrace door and right down to the ground floor hallway. Vertically right down through the route of the two hall-way detector heads below. Some of that water damage is still evident and was mentioned on a visit by the LL during a visit to effect another repair.

Apologies for not updating the topic recently, but due to the 2+ week holiday by the Council progress came to a halt for a while.


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