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1st estate agent wants fees

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veeCodger1
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1st estate agent wants fees

#403831

Postby veeCodger1 » April 13th, 2021, 11:35 am

A number of years ago, I placed my flat for sale with Springbox who assured me they could sell it within 6 weeks for £200k. There were a number of viewings but no sale.

I then went to a high street estate agent who marketed the property and eventually sold the property to a person who had previously viewed the property thru Springbox.

Springbox have some complex process of charging both the buyer and seller for property sales. I can not get the details as there is no direct phone number - just a call handling service. I probably have it hidden in an email from them.


As the buyer was originally introduced to the property by Springbox, they have now contacted a debt collector and are asking for their fees. They do not state what the fees are.


Any advice on this matter would be appreciated.

VC

monabri
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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403834

Postby monabri » April 13th, 2021, 11:40 am

If the contract says "sale within 6 weeks" was the property sold? ( sounds like a "no").

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403840

Postby Mike4 » April 13th, 2021, 11:46 am

monabri wrote:If the contract says "sale within 6 weeks" was the property sold? ( sounds like a "no").


I bet it doesn't though. The contract is far more likely to say "introduce a willing and able buyer within six weeks", or words to that effect.

It would be the height of stupidity for an EA contract to specify completion of a sale within six weeks as completion within six weeks of first marketing is quite unusual.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403844

Postby dealtn » April 13th, 2021, 12:04 pm

veeCodger1 wrote:

Any advice on this matter would be appreciated.

VC


Without knowing what was written in the contract it will be hard to comment, sorry.

veeCodger1
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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403845

Postby veeCodger1 » April 13th, 2021, 12:05 pm

monabri wrote:If the contract says "sale within 6 weeks" was the property sold? ( sounds like a "no").


The contract did not say this. I was verbally re-assured over the phone that they could sell it within 6 weeks. This did not happen, so I left it for sale for longer. Then the 'contract' period was over so I went with another traditional high street estate agent.

But it appears I may still be liable as the buyer was originally introduced via Springbox.

VC

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403846

Postby dealtn » April 13th, 2021, 12:07 pm

veeCodger1 wrote:
monabri wrote:If the contract says "sale within 6 weeks" was the property sold? ( sounds like a "no").


The contract did not say this. I was verbally re-assured over the phone that they could sell it within 6 weeks. This did not happen, so I left it for sale for longer. Then the 'contract' period was over so I went with another traditional high street estate agent.

But it appears I may still be liable as the buyer was originally introduced via Springbox.

VC


Yes you may be. But without knowing what is said in the contract we don't know.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403848

Postby richfool » April 13th, 2021, 12:10 pm

You would need to see the wording of the contract you signed or agreed to with Springbox. These things are usually fairly watertight in their wording and you could well be on a 'sticky wicket' if Springbox was the original introducer of the person who ultimately bought the property.

An option might be to see if Springbox will agree to splitting the commission with the agent who eventually sold the property.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403851

Postby Arborbridge » April 13th, 2021, 12:18 pm

It will all come down to the contract, but from what I've been told over the years, the original introducer is entitled to a fee, however long ago the introduction. I believe this has been tested in court - or at least that's what estate agents say!

It does seem one is on a sticky wicket, although it would see terribly unfair, particularly as the second (successful) agent is also due a fee.

The only defence I can see to this sort of practice is that must clarify the relationship between the agents before proceeding and get their agreement in writing.

Arb.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403855

Postby Mike4 » April 13th, 2021, 12:23 pm

Arborbridge wrote:It does seem one is on a sticky wicket, although it would see terribly unfair, particularly as the second (successful) agent is also due a fee.


I suppose there could be an argument that the second agent is not due a fee because they are not the agent who "introduced" the eventual buyer. I'm sure that one will have been teased out in court too though.

Depends on the wording of both contracts though, as others have already pointed out.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#403870

Postby Arborbridge » April 13th, 2021, 1:16 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:It does seem one is on a sticky wicket, although it would see terribly unfair, particularly as the second (successful) agent is also due a fee.


I suppose there could be an argument that the second agent is not due a fee because they are not the agent who "introduced" the eventual buyer. I'm sure that one will have been teased out in court too though.

Depends on the wording of both contracts though, as others have already pointed out.


I think the second agent could reasonably argue that his is due a fee for the work in processing the sale, whilst the first agent is due a fee for the introduction and work done in preparation.
Whichever way you look at it there does have the inbuilt element of misunderstanding: the customer thinks he is employing the EA to "sell" a house, so if he doesn't, then the agent has failed. Whereas the agent believes (and legally he's right) that he is being paid for the introduction resulting from the risk of taking on up front costs.

What we can all take away is that if we change agents, we do so with great caution and make sure the terms are fully agreed by all parties. The usual way would be to say to the first agent: we now intend to share the job with another agent - therefore we need to agree to your multiple agent fee.
That's always been an option when I have sold a house.

Arb.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404209

Postby gryffron » April 14th, 2021, 3:19 pm

I tried to sell a property by auction, failed, later went on to a “normal” estate agent. When I switched and withdrew it from the auction site, the auction co provided a list of the people they had “introduced”, and thus would require fees for if they later bought the place.

Whilst not disagreeing with anyone that it is all down to the contract, your first agent’s failure to provide such a list might be a possible get out. Specially if their contract/Ts&Cs says they should. One worth looking for.

Gryff

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404214

Postby Lootman » April 14th, 2021, 3:29 pm

Arborbridge wrote:I think the second agent could reasonably argue that his is due a fee for the work in processing the sale, whilst the first agent is due a fee for the introduction and work done in preparation.

Agreed. That is a good argument for the two agents splitting the fee, since they both did half the work, or so.

I do not see it as an argument why the client/seller should pay a double fee. In that situation I would invite the two agents to sort it out between them. They cannot reasonably both claim to have sold the property exclusively.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404217

Postby Steveam » April 14th, 2021, 3:38 pm

I had the house on sale with an agent and when I terminated the contract they gave me a list of people who they had introduced and for whom they would expect a fee IF SOLD TO THEM WITHIN TWO YEARS OF TERMINATION.

This was alo in the original contract. All perfectly above board.

When I discussed appointing a new agent I gave them the list of people and they agreed that these people would be excluded from their commission entitlement.

Best wishes,

Steve

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404218

Postby murraypaul » April 14th, 2021, 3:39 pm

Lootman wrote:I do not see it as an argument why the client/seller should pay a double fee. In that situation I would invite the two agents to sort it out between them. They cannot reasonably both claim to have sold the property exclusively.


They have no contract between themselves, I can't imagine they would even enter into that discussion.
The OP has signed two contracts with two agents.
Whether one or both are entitled to payment depends entirely on the contents of those contracts, which we don't know.
For example if each contract said they were entitled to be paid if they introduced or concluded a sale, then each agent would be entitled to their commission.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404221

Postby Lootman » April 14th, 2021, 3:52 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Lootman wrote:I do not see it as an argument why the client/seller should pay a double fee. In that situation I would invite the two agents to sort it out between them. They cannot reasonably both claim to have sold the property exclusively.

They have no contract between themselves, I can't imagine they would even enter into that discussion.

The OP has signed two contracts with two agents. Whether one or both are entitled to payment depends entirely on the contents of those contracts, which we don't know.

For example if each contract said they were entitled to be paid if they introduced or concluded a sale, then each agent would be entitled to their commission.

But two separate agencies cannot both claim to have exclusively introduced the same buyer. So one of them has not fully fulfilled their contract. At some point those agencies will have to resolve the question of how to allocate the fee. It would be better for them to work that out between them than have a judge make that decision for them.

I have personally encountered property transactions before where there was more than one agent involved, and the fee was always split in some way.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404236

Postby murraypaul » April 14th, 2021, 4:23 pm

Lootman wrote:But two separate agencies cannot both claim to have exclusively introduced the same buyer. So one of them has not fully fulfilled their contract.


We've no idea that that is what they are saying, do we?
How can you know someone hasn't fulfilled a contract without knowing what the contract says?
I think the situation is that one agent is saying they introduced the buyer, and one agent is saying they completed the sale.
In that case, if the contract for each says that they earn a commission by either introducing or completing, then they are both due a commission .
If the first contract says the earn their commission only by completing the sale, then they aren't due a fee. Without knowing the contract, we don't know the asnwer.

At some point those agencies will have to resolve the question of how to allocate the fee.


Nope. If they were both signed as single agents, they have no reason to agree to split a single fee between themselves.
Each is either entitled to the fee their contract says, or they are not.

I have personally encountered property transactions before where there was more than one agent involved, and the fee was always split in some way.


Those were probably (parallel) multiple agency deals. When you sign up with an agent you either sign them as an exclusive agent or a shared agent. They will charge you a higher level of commission for shared agency, because of the increased risk that they do work and get no return.
This appears to be a case of (serial) single agency deals, where the first agent was signed as an exclusive agent, then dropped and the second was signed as an exclusive agent.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404239

Postby Lootman » April 14th, 2021, 4:42 pm

murraypaul wrote:
Lootman wrote:But two separate agencies cannot both claim to have exclusively introduced the same buyer. So one of them has not fully fulfilled their contract.

I think the situation is that one agent is saying they introduced the buyer, and one agent is saying they completed the sale.

I agree that they both did half the job, which is why I said they should split the fee in some proportion, which is a common practice. Although if I were adjudicating this I would favour the second firm more, since the buyer only became serious when the second firm worked on bringing the buyer and seller together. The first firm dropped the ball, not least with their speculative and ill-fated promise to "sell within 6 weeks".

I would also be interested in why this happened. For instance if that reluctant buyer only made an offer after the second firm persuaded the seller to drop the price, then that gives more credit to the second firm.

I also wonder whether the buyer failed to mention to the second firm his previous viewing via the first firm. In fact it seems to me that the only innocent party here may be the seller, so I would be reluctant to make any judgement that disadvantaged him - I believe the legal term is that he has "clean hands".

I do not blame the first firm for trying it on, but I am not sympathetic to their claim. This does all point to the prudence of formally ending a relationship with one agency before commencing another one, however.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404240

Postby dealtn » April 14th, 2021, 4:50 pm

Lootman wrote: Although if I were adjudicating this I would ...


If I were adjudicating this I would want to see what was agreed in both contracts before making judgement.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404244

Postby Lootman » April 14th, 2021, 4:55 pm

dealtn wrote:
Lootman wrote: Although if I were adjudicating this I would ...

If I were adjudicating this I would want to see what was agreed in both contracts before making judgement.

I would look at the contracts too. But often such cases are resolved at least partly through an assessment of who behaved reasonably or unreasonably, in good faith or bad faith, and not just according to the small print. Especially where the contracts conflict, as seems to be the problem here.

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Re: 1st estate agent wants fees

#404247

Postby murraypaul » April 14th, 2021, 5:09 pm

I think the discussion is getting side tracked into what people think is fair, which has nothing to do with the question.
If:
a) The first agent's contract said that they would paid commission if they introduced someone who later bought the house within X time period
b) The contract said that that entitlement would continue if the customer cancelled their agency
c) They introduced a buyer
d) That buyer bought the house within X time period
Then they are entitled to their commission.

It doesn't matter whether a second agent was hired or the house was sold privately, it doesn't matter what the second agent's contract says, it doesn't matter what seems fair or not.
If the scenario above matches what happened, then the agent did what the contract said they needed to do to earn a commission, so they have earned it.


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