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Landlords beware!

Covering Market, Trends, and Practical (but see LEMON-AID for Building & DIY)
Arborbridge
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Re: Landlords beware!

#433533

Postby Arborbridge » August 8th, 2021, 1:15 pm

didds wrote:Bottom line - when you earn 19K a year you arent buyiong anywhere. Except as suggested if you live in the right place. and have that 19K job whilst living there


One has to wonder if society ought to be encouraging someone earning £19k to buy a property.

It wasn't so in the past. Pre-Thatcher there were some really solid houses available to rent at low cost for families, which got sold off and were not replaced. Absolutely tragedy.

AAMOI I first bought a house (1969-70) because the cost was similar to renting. I was incredibly lucky having a couple of friends with cash who lent me enough to plug the hole between my savings and the deposit needed - which was a horrendous 30% of the price, or so, as I remember. One couldn't do anything like that after the Great Inflation in house prices, mostly brought on by loosening of lending criteria. Prices couldn't have moved up without liquidity.

Arb.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Landlords beware!

#433534

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » August 8th, 2021, 3:22 pm

didds wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:Would you mind if I politely corrected you please. Gleeson Homes sell new homes and their target customer is a bus driver earning £22K per year and his good lady wife who earns £18K per year.
Of course you have to be a couple to afford the above.

AiY


exactly.

So I as i said if you are on 19K a year you aint buying nuffink.

didds

https://www.placebuzz.com/property-for- ... s/30666166

I'll sell you something :lol:

AiY

didds
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Re: Landlords beware!

#433535

Postby didds » August 8th, 2021, 5:13 pm

Arborbridge wrote:You may not be renting much in some areas either. In work poverty.



Amen. You are certainly not wrong!

didds
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Re: Landlords beware!

#433536

Postby didds » August 8th, 2021, 5:14 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:https://www.placebuzz.com/property-for- ... s/30666166

I'll sell you something :lol:

AiY




Yeah - but then one has to move to hull. where the job one has isn't.. :-)

Appreciate the thought though :-)


Mind you the promimity to the Wooly Butt Brew Shed could be a convincing factor!
didds

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Landlords beware!

#433537

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » August 8th, 2021, 6:16 pm

didds wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:https://www.placebuzz.com/property-for- ... s/30666166

I'll sell you something :lol:

AiY


Yeah - but then one has to move to hull. where the job one has isn't.. :-)

Appreciate the thought though :-)

Mind you the promimity to the Wooly Butt Brew Shed could be a convincing factor!
didds

Since Siemens have established their presence in Hull there does seem to be some additional work available. I would have thought there was half a reasonable chance of finding something in excess of £19K per annum. Most of my site labourer's earn over £20K per year, albeit it's physically demanding work. Bus drivers earn north of £23K and I often see adverts for them. And take a look at this.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.73807 ... 312!8i6656

AiY

88V8
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Re: Landlords beware!

#433538

Postby 88V8 » August 8th, 2021, 6:51 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:And take a look at this.....

And there's a rather magnificent gents over the road. Ideal after chucking-out time.

V8

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Landlords beware!

#433539

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » August 8th, 2021, 7:24 pm

88V8 wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:And take a look at this.....

And there's a rather magnificent gents over the road. Ideal after chucking-out time.

V8

Like all cities there are some very run down areas in Hull. But there's new life being breathed into this area.

A walk around the old town many years ago on a Friday night with the lads was always great night out. Plenty of good pubs and great beer. We didn't bother with the new town though :lol:

AiY

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433540

Postby MrFoolish » August 9th, 2021, 8:54 am

I don't view most landlords as running a business in the true sense. Many years ago, when I rented various different properties, none of the landlords showed the slightest interest in their tenants or their properties. Maintenance was done begrudgingly or not at all. It was obvious they looked at these homes as cash cows, to be milked for rent and capital gain, whilst putting in negligable work. And this was before the BTL craze, so I can only imagine things have got worse.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433541

Postby Lootman » August 9th, 2021, 8:57 am

MrFoolish wrote:I don't view most landlords as running a business in the true sense. Many years ago, when I rented various different properties, none of the landlords showed the slightest interest in their tenants or their properties. Maintenance was done begrudgingly or not at all. It was obvious they looked at these homes as cash cows, to be milked for rent and capital gain, whilst putting in negligable work. And this was before the BTL craze, so I can only imagine things have got worse.

Of course it is a business. The taxman certainly thinks so although still taxes landlords unfairly versus other businesses.

Obviously there will be good and bad landlords, just like there are good and bad tenants. Maybe you just met the wrong ones?

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433542

Postby MrFoolish » August 9th, 2021, 9:11 am

Lootman wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:I don't view most landlords as running a business in the true sense. Many years ago, when I rented various different properties, none of the landlords showed the slightest interest in their tenants or their properties. Maintenance was done begrudgingly or not at all. It was obvious they looked at these homes as cash cows, to be milked for rent and capital gain, whilst putting in negligable work. And this was before the BTL craze, so I can only imagine things have got worse.

Of course it is a business. The taxman certainly thinks so although still taxes landlords unfairly versus other businesses.

Obviously there will be good and bad landlords, just like there are good and bad tenants. Maybe you just met the wrong ones?


I suppose it's possible I was unlucky. But there you go, I'm unlikely to change my view now. Seems the government shares my view and they are not exactly raving socialists.

Anyway, I would favour a lot more house building, especially in rural areas where they can't get the workers to bring in the crops. I understand we have more land devoted to golf courses than housing in this country.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433543

Postby Arborbridge » August 9th, 2021, 9:27 am

MrFoolish wrote:I don't view most landlords as running a business in the true sense. Many years ago, when I rented various different properties, none of the landlords showed the slightest interest in their tenants or their properties. Maintenance was done begrudgingly or not at all. It was obvious they looked at these homes as cash cows, to be milked for rent and capital gain, whilst putting in negligable work. And this was before the BTL craze, so I can only imagine things have got worse.


It's definitely a business and as a landlord I take the responsibility seriously as regards the tenant's well being, safety and my duty towards taxes and regulations. Naturally, I want to - need to - make a profit, otherwise there would be no point. But it is a constant drag trying to fulfill tenants wishes and to make up for (in several cases) their lack of lifeskills - especially in looking after the basics of where they are living. They let properties deteriorate when a stitch in time would save nine. A tenant has just left and I am finding many minor problems which lead to expensive or time consuming changes - things which could easily have been fixed cheaply at the time had they been reported. But they just don't care, not even when it affects there own lifestyle and happiness.

I don't want to get too anecdotal, but I could list many cases in which the tenant is at fault for, frankly, being quite hopeless. God know how they would cope if they owned their own house.
Having said that, I have other tenants who keep their places clean and smart and take an interest in their homes. Mind you, the best one I have in that respect is a year in arrears with the rent :roll:

One day soon - in the next couple of years - I hope to give up this constant drag and invest in a different way. At least my shares don't phone my up at random times with problems with they want me to solve whereas most of us would have to do it for ourselves.

Arb.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433544

Postby Arborbridge » August 9th, 2021, 9:30 am

MrFoolish wrote:
Lootman wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:I don't view most landlords as running a business in the true sense. Many years ago, when I rented various different properties, none of the landlords showed the slightest interest in their tenants or their properties. Maintenance was done begrudgingly or not at all. It was obvious they looked at these homes as cash cows, to be milked for rent and capital gain, whilst putting in negligable work. And this was before the BTL craze, so I can only imagine things have got worse.

Of course it is a business. The taxman certainly thinks so although still taxes landlords unfairly versus other businesses.

Obviously there will be good and bad landlords, just like there are good and bad tenants. Maybe you just met the wrong ones?


I suppose it's possible I was unlucky. But there you go, I'm unlikely to change my view now. Seems the government shares my view and they are not exactly raving socialists.

Anyway, I would favour a lot more house building, especially in rural areas where they can't get the workers to bring in the crops. I understand we have more land devoted to golf courses than housing in this country.


You say they are not raving socialists - that's true, but the odd thing is that Johnson (whilst supporting his rich friends) behaves more labour than labour at times! And his vendetta against landlords could come straight out of the labour play book. We are not all as black as painted.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433545

Postby MrFoolish » August 9th, 2021, 9:48 am

Arborbridge wrote:You say they are not raving socialists - that's true, but the odd thing is that Johnson (whilst supporting his rich friends) behaves more labour than labour at times! And his vendetta against landlords could come straight out of the labour play book. We are not all as black as painted.


Johnson will eventually go back to writing lies for the newspapers. With more money coming in from after dinner speeches where he repeats the same charade of forgetting his lines every single time*. Sunak is married to a billionaire. Rees-Mogg has his hedge fund. Williamson is just amazed he still has a job. They are not going to worry too much about lower class landlords. In fact, you should probably learn your place.

BTW, I agree, buying shares is a lot less hassle.


* https://reaction.life/jeremy-vine-my-boris-story/

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433546

Postby 88V8 » August 9th, 2021, 10:35 am

Arborbridge wrote:I don't want to get too anecdotal, but I could list many cases in which the tenant is at fault for, frankly, being quite hopeless. God know how they would cope if they owned their own house.

It is really unimaginable to me that a private individual would make a six-figure investment and give it to the average member of the public to look after.
I think one would have to be of a very optimistic temperament.

MrFoolish wrote:I would favour a lot more house building, especially in rural areas where they can't get the workers to bring in the crops. I understand we have more land devoted to golf courses than housing in this country.

From which I deduce that you don't live in a rural area, nor play golf :)

V8

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433547

Postby Avantegarde » August 9th, 2021, 4:04 pm

Lootman wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:I don't view most landlords as running a business in the true sense. Many years ago, when I rented various different properties, none of the landlords showed the slightest interest in their tenants or their properties. Maintenance was done begrudgingly or not at all. It was obvious they looked at these homes as cash cows, to be milked for rent and capital gain, whilst putting in negligable work. And this was before the BTL craze, so I can only imagine things have got worse.

Of course it is a business. The taxman certainly thinks so although still taxes landlords unfairly versus other businesses.

Obviously there will be good and bad landlords, just like there are good and bad tenants. Maybe you just met the wrong ones?


In what way are landlords taxed unfairly? The general attitude of many landlords seems to be that paying any tax at all is an outrageous affront to their God-given right to a reliable 4% yield on their "investment", with capital gains baked in, and cushioned all the way by tax breaks galore. Point in case: a few years ago someone checked the figures and found that in the London borough of Newham there were twice as many landlords registered with the local council as there were landlords paying tax to HMRC on those properties! Landlords seem to rival bond-holders for their self-righteous belief that investment "risk" is only for other people but definitely not for them.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433548

Postby Lootman » August 9th, 2021, 4:14 pm

Avantegarde wrote:
Lootman wrote:
MrFoolish wrote:I don't view most landlords as running a business in the true sense. Many years ago, when I rented various different properties, none of the landlords showed the slightest interest in their tenants or their properties. Maintenance was done begrudgingly or not at all. It was obvious they looked at these homes as cash cows, to be milked for rent and capital gain, whilst putting in negligable work. And this was before the BTL craze, so I can only imagine things have got worse.

Of course it is a business. The taxman certainly thinks so although still taxes landlords unfairly versus other businesses.

Obviously there will be good and bad landlords, just like there are good and bad tenants. Maybe you just met the wrong ones?

In what way are landlords taxed unfairly? The general attitude of many landlords seems to be that paying any tax at all is an outrageous affront to their God-given right to a reliable 4% yield on their "investment", with capital gains baked in, and cushioned all the way by tax breaks galore. Point in case: a few years ago someone checked the figures and found that in the London borough of Newham there were twice as many landlords registered with the local council as there were landlords paying tax to HMRC on those properties! Landlords seem to rival bond-holders for their self-righteous belief that investment "risk" is only for other people but definitely not for them.

The example I was thinking of was the change a few years ago whereby private individual landlords could no longer deduct their mortgage interest from their rental income for tax purposes. This is in marked contrast to other businesses where loan expenses can be offset against income.

Whether some landlords fiddle their taxes or not is an entirely different matter. I was discussing the tax code and how it does not treat all businesses equally.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433549

Postby Charlottesquare » August 9th, 2021, 4:59 pm

Lootman wrote:
Avantegarde wrote:
Lootman wrote:Of course it is a business. The taxman certainly thinks so although still taxes landlords unfairly versus other businesses.

Obviously there will be good and bad landlords, just like there are good and bad tenants. Maybe you just met the wrong ones?

In what way are landlords taxed unfairly? The general attitude of many landlords seems to be that paying any tax at all is an outrageous affront to their God-given right to a reliable 4% yield on their "investment", with capital gains baked in, and cushioned all the way by tax breaks galore. Point in case: a few years ago someone checked the figures and found that in the London borough of Newham there were twice as many landlords registered with the local council as there were landlords paying tax to HMRC on those properties! Landlords seem to rival bond-holders for their self-righteous belief that investment "risk" is only for other people but definitely not for them.

The example I was thinking of was the change a few years ago whereby private individual landlords could no longer deduct their mortgage interest from their rental income for tax purposes. This is in marked contrast to other businesses where loan expenses can be offset against income.

Whether some landlords fiddle their taxes or not is an entirely different matter. I was discussing the tax code and how it does not treat all businesses equally.


They can deduct but only at an effective basic rate, so higher rate relief on interest paid is now lost.

The key re whether this is perceived as fair or not possibly depends upon how much effort one needs to put in to being a landlord , a trading business gets full relief for interest paid re that business, but does tend(if full time) to take far more effort, a gilt, bond, share investor tends to get no relief re borrowing (unless via a body corporate) but is possibly somewhat more passive, a landlord being a halfway house between the two re active/passive investment, a business but not a trading business, gets basic rate relief which might be considered fairish given its level of activity. What is annoying is the change to the prior system without that much notice to sort one's investments, property being like steering an oil tanker, difficult to change direction quickly. Frankly to me,when viewed within the spread of activities, it seems not that unfair when looked at through an active or passive prism .

(And I say this as the FD of a property group which at its height gathered in £1.5m of its own rents every year, notwithstanding the property letting was a part time job, it was the development side that took the long hours and the hard work)

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433550

Postby Lootman » August 9th, 2021, 5:08 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:The key re whether this is perceived as fair or not possibly depends upon how much effort one needs to put in to being a landlord , a trading business gets full relief for interest paid re that business, but does tend(if full time) to take far more effort, a gilt, bond, share investor tends to get no relief re borrowing (unless via a body corporate) but is possibly somewhat more passive, a landlord being a halfway house between the two re active/passive investment, a business but not a trading business, gets basic rate relief which might be considered fairish given its level of activity.

That is a fair observation. I must admit that when I first became a landlord, at age 26, a part of the appeal was that it appeared to me (as a tenant, at the time) that landlording was "money for old rope". I perceived it as basically sitting in an armchair and collecting rent cheques.

The reality of course is a little different, as any landlord who receives a phone call about a blocked toilet at 2 a.m. can testify. But still, yes, most of the time you aren't actually "working" at it. Given that I landlorded several rental properties whilst having a full-time career and raising children, it would be hard to argue otherwise.

But all that said I got out and sold my units because I was tired of all the hassle. I'd much rather play around with the stock market these days. But of course that takes the capital that landlording helped me accumulate.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433723

Postby Arborbridge » August 10th, 2021, 2:16 pm

Avantegarde wrote:In what way are landlords taxed unfairly? The general attitude of many landlords seems to be that paying any tax at all is an outrageous affront to their God-given right to a reliable 4% yield on their "investment", with capital gains baked in, and cushioned all the way by tax breaks galore..


You have a really juandiced and loaded attitude towards landlords, possibly from personal experience. But, as they say, one cannot judge the general from the particular.
However, here is another particular: I do not consider paying tax in an outrageous affront and neither do I have a God given right to any particular yield. To argue either of those would be completely absurd, and frankly, I doubt many landlords think like that at all.

In my view, BTL is a business, but the dice have been loaded against it by the government when the took away the ability to set interest against profit. BTL may the only business in which on does not pay tax on profit but on some mish-mash in between profit and earnings.
This is a really perverse thing to do, and AFAIK against all the usual principles of business taxation: there is no defensible rational reason for it, other than the government disliking BTL. I guess the motive was to squeeze out small landlords in favour of big businesses run by friends of the Tory party, Johnson and Jenrick (who both have cultivated big property companies) and at the same time score a few brownie points among the red wall voters.

Arb.

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Re: Landlords beware!

#433725

Postby Arborbridge » August 10th, 2021, 2:18 pm

88V8 wrote:It is really unimaginable to me that a private individual would make a six-figure investment and give it to the average member of the public to look after.
I think one would have to be of a very optimistic temperament.


V8


A good argument: I'll have to use that next time when Mrs Arb opposes selling of one of our properties :)

Arb.


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