Damp, mould and the threat to health

[XFool]

More insight into the causes of the dampness here: https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1592802533545852929

Where? More evidence of political posturing, by the look of it...

Disclaimer: I do not have a Twitter account and so now cannot see more than a quick smattering of a Twitter thread.

[88V8]

We all know that how we use a property can affect damp and mould build up.... I assume they were in the poorer end of the spectrum so probably not used to having the heating on and windows open but that probably goes for a lot of tenants generally.

I heard they were from Sudan.
If so, many parts of that country are pretty warm and dry.
Perhaps one takeaway from this, as we are on the Property board, is that if one rents to people who are unaccustomed to a cold damp climate, have little English and perhaps little money, then sadly one is likely to have problems.

V8

[Dod101]

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, do exactly that for several months of the year, and I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, don't have a mould problem. Maybe it's more to do with the buildings, rather than how the millions and millions use them....

I'd say as a lifelong builder (and LL of 25 years) it is about half-and-half. Which is why I feel very uneasy about this whole LL vilification thing.

I think there will be LLs up and down the land thinking any damp problems that seem tenant-related are going result in a S21 eviction, should a law be introduced holding LLs responsible for all damp problems whatever the cause. What else can they do? I've seen rented properties occupied by families who cook constantly and never open the windows, for example. What IS a LL to do in such a situation?

Methinks you doth protest too much. I know well that things are getting more difficult for landlords and of course the mould throughout the flat could have been caused by the tenants-as I do not think they have lived for all that long in this country but even so I got the impression that no one had been near them to even look at the problem and seeing the condition of the flat on the BBCNews, it certainly looked pretty bad.

Dod

[mc2fool]

More insight into the causes of the dampness here: https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1592802533545852929

Where? More evidence of political posturing, by the look of it...

Disclaimer: I do not have a Twitter account and so now cannot see more than a quick smattering of a Twitter thread.

The barrister representing them being interviewed was engaged in "political posturing" ?!?

(I don't have a Twitter a/c either, but didn't we deal with that in another thread?)

We all know that how we use a property can affect damp and mould build up.... I assume they were in the poorer end of the spectrum so probably not used to having the heating on and windows open but that probably goes for a lot of tenants generally.

I heard they were from Sudan.
If so, many parts of that country are pretty warm and dry.
Perhaps one takeaway from this, as we are on the Property board, is that if one rents to people who are unaccustomed to a cold damp climate, have little English and perhaps little money, then sadly one is likely to have problems.

They've been here since at least 2016, so they'd be familiar with the climate by now, and you will note that they had engaged solicitors in the matter, so I think your "takeways" from this don't fit.

[XFool]

More insight into the causes of the dampness here: https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1592802533545852929

Where? More evidence of political posturing, by the look of it...

The barrister representing them being interviewed was engaged in "political posturing" ?!?

Is this a clue? :

"Prosecute the father that was too bone idle to get some bleach out and clean his filthy flat,
Child abuse! What parent idly stands by and lets a child live in this mess."

[Gerry557]

We all know that how we use a property can affect damp and mould build up.... I assume they were in the poorer end of the spectrum so probably not used to having the heating on and windows open but that probably goes for a lot of tenants generally.

I heard they were from Sudan.
If so, many parts of that country are pretty warm and dry.
Perhaps one takeaway from this, as we are on the Property board, is that if one rents to people who are unaccustomed to a cold damp climate, have little English and perhaps little money, then sadly one is likely to have problems.

V8

Yes they were from Sudan. Having been a landlord, local English people have the same problem. Some even think their wet dog wasn't a pet or either of the two cats. Sometimes people just do what they want and then complain. I need a new carpet because it's got holes in it..... but it was caused by the animals that weren't allowed under the tenancy.

There has to be a balance.

[Gerry557]

But on the whole, mould is caused by the way people use the building.
Drying washing indoors, showering or cooking with the window closed, not opening windows every day.

I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, do exactly that for several months of the year, and I, like I'm sure millions and millions of other people, don't have a mould problem. Maybe it's more to do with the buildings, rather than how the millions and millions use them....

I'd say as a lifelong builder (and LL of 25 years) it is about half-and-half. Which is why I feel very uneasy about this whole LL vilification thing.

I think there will be LLs up and down the land thinking any damp problems that seem tenant-related are going result in a S21 eviction, should a law be introduced holding LLs responsible for all damp problems whatever the cause. What else can they do? I've seen rented properties occupied by families who cook constantly and never open the windows, for example. What IS a LL to do in such a situation?

Methinks you doth protest too much. I know well that things are getting more difficult for landlords and of course the mould throughout the flat could have been caused by the tenants-as I do not think they have lived for all that long in this country but even so I got the impression that no one had been near them to even look at the problem and seeing the condition of the flat on the BBCNews, it certainly looked pretty bad.

Dod

The flat was inspected 5 or 6 months prior. What the outcome was I don't know or any recommendations. Still it might have been stored on the IT system that didn't work properly for them.

I think they were there for several years and made a number of complaints. There were also medical notes also sent to the Association also not acted upon.

[mc2fool]

More insight into the causes of the dampness here: https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1592802533545852929

Where? More evidence of political posturing, by the look of it...

The barrister representing them being interviewed was engaged in "political posturing" ?!?

Is this a clue? :

"Prosecute the father that was too bone idle to get some bleach out and clean his filthy flat,
Child abuse! What parent idly stands by and lets a child live in this mess."

And you don't know that's neither here nor there as to why modellingman posted the link as "More insight into the causes of the dampness here"? If you watch the interview it'll answer your question of "where?"

[XFool]

If you watch the interview it'll answer your question of "where?"

OK, I have now listened to the Nick Ferrari LBC interview with the barrister. Unsurprisingly, not totally comprehensive on how the damp issues came about. However... a bathroom without a window and an extractor fan not working is obviously going to have serious knock-on effects.

[modellingman]

You mean some buildings may not be fit to live in?
In starting this thread I was hoping to debate the issues of damp and mould in rentals rather than poor Awaab Ishak specifically.

OK, let's give this a go from the regulatory perspective. This is, after all, the Property Investment board and regulation of the private rented sector is a subject that is relevant to those of us who are invested in property.

One of the main regulations that the PRS is subject to is the Housing Health and Safety Rating System (HHSRS). This comprises a list of some 29 hazards, with an assessment system that results in a "score" for each hazard which reflects the likelihood and seriousness of an adverse outcome occurring. Details of how the assessments should be applied, the list of hazards, etc are all contained in the 185 page "Operating Guidance" document (pdf).

All properties are subject to HHSRS, owner-occupied, PRS and social housing. Enforcement, ie formal assessments, can be undertaken by local authority officers (typically Environmental Health Officers).

Annex A sets out the responsibility of landlords. These are listed as:

Generally, the landlord (or owner) is responsible for the provision, state and proper working order of the following:
(a) the exterior and structural elements of the dwelling; and
(b) the installations within and associated with the dwelling for:
i the supply and use of water, gas and electricity;
ii personal hygiene, sanitation and drainage;
iii food safety;
iv ventilation;
v space heating; and
vi heating water.

The 29 hazards are placed into one of 4 groups: physiological requirements, psychological requirements, protection against infection, protection against accidents. The first hazard in the physiological requirements group is Damp and Mould Growth. The narrative dealing with this hazard covers some 32 paragraphs of Annex A of the Operating Guidance. Health effects of the hazard are noted as being most serious amongst under 14's and are due to the detritus from house dust mites and mould spores [which] are potent airborne allergens. Both are related to temperature and relative humidity (ie damp) and the causes of damp are identified as building defects (eg failed/lack of damp proof course) and inadequate background ventilation. Background ventilation should be adequate to avoid the hazard. In particular, and this may come as a surprise, there should be sufficient and appropriate means of ventilation to deal with moisture generated by normal domestic activities without the need to open windows. (My emphasis.)

In addition to the HHSRS, social housing (such as that provided by Rochdale Boroughwide Housing) is also subject to the Decent Homes Standard. This sets out (in the inevitable pdf) 4 broad criteria for social housing and dates back to 2006 at a time when social housing was largely completing its transition from mainly being controlled by local authorities to structures such as arms length management organisations (ALMOs) and housing associations. The four broad criteria are:
Criterion a: It meets the current statutory minimum standard for housing - essentially no category 1 hazards under HHSRS
Criterion b: It is in a reasonable state of repair - building components (structure and stuff like plumbing and electrics) are not old and not in a poor state of repair
Criterion c: It has reasonably modern facilities and services - included in this are kitchens less than 20 years old and bathrooms less than 30 years old
Criterion d: It provides a reasonable degree of thermal comfort - defined quite weakly as effective insulation (eg minimum of 50mm (yes mm not cm!) of loft insulation) and efficient heating.

There was a consultation over the summer specifically about extending the Decent Homes Standard to the PRS. The background section on the consultation webpage makes for interesting (IMHO) reading

The Decent Homes Standard has played a key role in setting the minimum standards that social homes are required to meet since the early 2000s. During our consultation events for the Social housing green paper, we heard that 72% of respondents agreed that changes to what constitutes a decent home should be considered.

That is why, in the Social housing white paper, published on 17 November 2020, the government committed to review the Decent Homes Standard.

The Levelling up white paper built on this ambition, setting a mission for the number of non-decent rented homes to have fallen by 50% with the biggest improvements in the lowest performing areas, alongside consulting on a legally binding Decent Homes Standard in the private rented sector for the first time.

In their perennial objections to local authority proposals to introduce and continue schemes for selective and additional licensing in the PRS, the landlord associations (rightly in my view), note that the PRS is already highly regulated and that one of the main weaknesses in the current regulatory system is that there is an almost universal lack of enforcement. Local authorities, thanks to that nice and aptly named Mr Pickles, were subject to swingeing cuts during Osborne's Age of Austerity. Local authorities like selective/additional licensing schemes because they can recover the cost of these schemes through the licensing fees they are allowed to impose. However, and this is a personal opinion as I have never been subject to such a scheme, it strikes me that even with such schemes levels of inspection and enforcement are still fairly low. I suspect that it is this enforcement aspect that the senior North Manchester coroner had in mind when she called it a "defining moment" for the sector.

There is plenty of regulation which affects the PRS but, in my view, housing associations have largely been left to get on with it. They have certainly been encouraged through "build-to-sell" and "affordable rent" to act much more like commercial rather than social operators with all the consequences (good and bad) that this brings.

As I noted in my previous post, I think that housing associations will be the primary fallout target of the tragedy that befell the Ishak family. An article in today's Times underlines this view.

In the Commons Michael Gove, the housing secretary, accused Rochdale Boroughwide Housing (RBH) of a “terrible dereliction of duty” that was “rooted in ignorance and prejudice”.

Gove said his department would “name and shame” landlords who had been found to have breached standards or committed severe maladministration, adding: “The time for empty promises is over.”

...

During the period, the pay of Gareth Swarbrick, the RBH chief executive, rose to £185,000, while the amount spent on major repairs fell. Gove said it “beggars belief” that Swarbrick, who lives in Bolton, was still in his job, and summoned him to a meeting.

“Our Social Housing Regulation Bill will bring in a rigorous new regime that holds landlords like these to account for the decency of their homes,” Gove said. “The reforms that we’re making will help to relieve the burden on tenants with an emboldened and more powerful regulator.”

When I have recovered the will to live, I might write about my personal experience of a tenant who complained to the local authority about damp and condensation and what I subsequently said about the resulting "informal inspection" to the senior EHO who visited. It wasn't complimentary.

modellingman

[88V8]

In particular, and this may come as a surprise, there should be sufficient and appropriate means of ventilation to deal with moisture generated by normal domestic activities without the need to open windows. (My emphasis.)

If I had ever entertained any thoughts of becoming a landlord, that comprehensive post would have put me off.

For all but the most highly insulated houses, the notion of not having to open windows seems far-fetched. Our shower room has a powerful fan, but the windows still steam up. The only rooms in our previous house (1921) where there was no condensation were those with open fireplaces whether or not in use, including the bedrooms, and the bathroom where there was a working open fire.
I dare say nowadays most disused fire-places have been blocked up to prevent heat escaping via the chimney.

V8

[dubre]

Strictly on the damp/mould problem :-

1. I do not open windows in winter, Opening a window in winter is similar to having a 3kW heater in the middle of the lawn.
2. The mould in a bathroom was there because my girls seemed to live in the shower/that room has no extraction fan.Running an extraction fan is like putting a heater outside.

I cleaned off the mould and redecorated. The purchase and use of a dehumidifier has completely solved the problem.

I appreciate that when renting property different rules apply.

[XFool]

...Interesting question: How much energy does the humidifier use throughout the winter?

I do open windows in winter - they do not have to be open all the time. I do not have a dehumidifier.

[Nimrod103]

...Interesting question: How much energy does the humidifier use throughout the winter?

I do open windows in winter - they do not have to be open all the time. I do not have a dehumidifier.

I guess as much energy as a small air conditioning unit, because AIUI that is basically what a dehumidifier is. A friend of mine runs one, and thinks it is great because not only does it remove moisture but gives out warm air. So if you heat with full rate electricity, running a dehumidifier makes some sense. But there is no point in opening the windows as well.

Personally I live my life at a lower temperature, and make sure there is sufficient ventilation.

[XFool]

...Interesting question: How much energy does the humidifier use throughout the winter?

I guess as much energy as a small air conditioning unit, because AIUI that is basically what a dehumidifier is. A friend of mine runs one, and thinks it is great because not only does it remove moisture but gives out warm air. So if you heat with full rate electricity, running a dehumidifier makes some sense.

Are you sure?

I can see that overall such a unit must add some heat to a room (inefficiencies: heat from motor, work done by fan on air. More heating than cooling? etc.), but as a dehumidifier is fundamentally a heat pump (like fridge mechanism) working in a closed space, essentially it's just moving the heat around in a room rather than heating it. After all, you can't cool your kitchen down in hot weather by leaving the fridge door open, you'd do better by turning the fridge off.

Personally I live my life at a lower temperature, and make sure there is sufficient ventilation.

This sounds like me as well, I seem to tolerate low temperatures better than some people and don't like to be too warm.

[ReformedCharacter]

I can see that overall such a unit must add some heat to a room (inefficiencies: heat from motor, work done by fan on air. More heating than cooling? etc.), but as a dehumidifier is fundamentally a heat pump (like fridge mechanism) working in a closed space, essentially it's just moving the heat around in a room rather than heating it.

Depends on the dehumidifier surely? AFAIK there are two main types, refrigerant and desiccant. Living now in an old house with a number of unused rooms (children left home), we have one refrigerant and a number of desiccants, the latter run for a couple of hours in the winter in unused rooms by timer. AIUI refrigerant dehumidifiers are less efficient at low temperatures unlike desiccants. The desiccants have the advantage of adding a little extra heat to otherwise unheated rooms, which isn't to suggest that refrigerants don't add heat too, for the reasons you mention.

RC

[servodude]

I can see that overall such a unit must add some heat to a room (inefficiencies: heat from motor, work done by fan on air. More heating than cooling? etc.), but as a dehumidifier is fundamentally a heat pump (like fridge mechanism) working in a closed space, essentially it's just moving the heat around in a room rather than heating it.

Depends on the dehumidifier surely? AFAIK there are two main types, refrigerant and desiccant. Living now in an old house with a number of unused rooms (children left home), we have one refrigerant and a number of desiccants, the latter run for a couple of hours in the winter in unused rooms by timer. AIUI refrigerant dehumidifiers are less efficient at low temperatures unlike desiccants. The desiccants have the advantage of adding a little extra heat to otherwise unheated rooms, which isn't to suggest that refrigerants don't add heat too, for the reasons you mention.

RC

In drying the air both affect the perception of the temperature (or the "apparent temperature")

[Nimrod103]

I can see that overall such a unit must add some heat to a room (inefficiencies: heat from motor, work done by fan on air. More heating than cooling? etc.), but as a dehumidifier is fundamentally a heat pump (like fridge mechanism) working in a closed space, essentially it's just moving the heat around in a room rather than heating it.

Depends on the dehumidifier surely? AFAIK there are two main types, refrigerant and desiccant. Living now in an old house with a number of unused rooms (children left home), we have one refrigerant and a number of desiccants, the latter run for a couple of hours in the winter in unused rooms by timer. AIUI refrigerant dehumidifiers are less efficient at low temperatures unlike desiccants. The desiccants have the advantage of adding a little extra heat to otherwise unheated rooms, which isn't to suggest that refrigerants don't add heat too, for the reasons you mention.

RC

In drying the air both affect the perception of the temperature (or the "apparent temperature")

Yes but my borderline O level physics pass comes in here, doesn't the condensing water give off its latent heat, in addition to the electrical energy put in by the compressor.

[servodude]

In drying the air both affect the perception of the temperature (or the "apparent temperature")

Yes but my borderline O level physics pass comes in here, doesn't the condensing water give off its latent heat, in addition to the electrical energy put in by the compressor.

Yup. Water condensing is an exothermic reaction

[XFool]

I can see that overall such a unit must add some heat to a room (inefficiencies: heat from motor, work done by fan on air. More heating than cooling? etc.), but as a dehumidifier is fundamentally a heat pump (like fridge mechanism) working in a closed space, essentially it's just moving the heat around in a room rather than heating it.

Depends on the dehumidifier surely? AFAIK there are two main types, refrigerant and desiccant. Living now in an old house with a number of unused rooms (children left home), we have one refrigerant and a number of desiccants, the latter run for a couple of hours in the winter in unused rooms by timer. AIUI refrigerant dehumidifiers are less efficient at low temperatures unlike desiccants.

How do desiccant dehumidifiers work in a domestic environment? Can they last through the winter and be 'reversed' during summer or do the desiccants need to be physically replaced.