Renters Reform Bill 2023

[Mike4]

Perhaps the government will end up with a ban on no-fault evictions, and rents will be set by a local authority "fair rent officer"? Then we will be back to the 1970s, with all that that implies for rental housing.

However my kids are still keen on expanding their rental ambitions. Having lived through the halcyon days of being a landlord, the 1980s and 1990s, I would not touch it now.

I agree, this is where it's heading and I need to plan my exit too. History may not repeat itself but it often rhymes. Was that Mark Twain? Very true though and our current bunch of politicians are too young to remember rent controls, sitting tenants, everyone being forced to buy as nothing was available to rent and all that from the 70s.

OTOH I can see why your kids are enthusiastic. I have one coming vacant soon and the new rent will be almost double what the vacating tenant was paying. (Granted, after a quick new kitchen and bathroom.)

[Lootman]

Perhaps the government will end up with a ban on no-fault evictions, and rents will be set by a local authority "fair rent officer"? Then we will be back to the 1970s, with all that that implies for rental housing.

However my kids are still keen on expanding their rental ambitions. Having lived through the halcyon days of being a landlord, the 1980s and 1990s, I would not touch it now.

I agree, this is where it's heading and I need to plan my exit too. History may not repeat itself but it often rhymes. Was that Mark Twain? Very true though and our current bunch of politicians are too young to remember rent controls, sitting tenants, everyone being forced to buy as nothing was available to rent and all that from the 70s.

OTOH I can see why your kids are enthusiastic. I have one coming vacant soon and the new rent will be almost double what the vacating tenant was paying. (Granted, after a quick new kitchen and bathroom.)

Ah yes, sitting tenants. I remember buying a rental building in 1998 and I inherited a sitting tenant. His lease dated from the 1970s. I recall my solicitor telling me that I would struggle to evict him even if he stopped paying his (peppercorn) rent, which of course I could not increase.

A couple of years later he had a fall in his unit, broke his hip, and thereafter could not walk up stairs. So the council rehoused him and I got my unit back. Lucky break, as it were.

With my kids, their tenants are the same age as them, so it is almost more like a housemate situation and they are all friends. No doubt that will change over time.

[Arborbridge]

For us old guys in BTL, this is certainly going too far the wrong way, and has been tending to for years.


If EPC minimum standard enforcement comes in re residential property why do you think it will only apply to renting properties, it could just as readily apply to sales of property leaving any exit route difficult.

I'm not sure where, but I am sure there wasa speculation that it would initial make it impossible to rent, but OK to sell.

Even worse, if both follows. Do they imagine it will be would be acceptable to pull down flats or house all over the country in a few years because people need to sell but aren't allowed to? I doubt building societies would be happy to find their loans are secured on rubble.

Arb.

[Charlottesquare]

I'm not sure where, but I am sure there wasa speculation that it would initial make it impossible to rent, but OK to sell.

Even worse, if both follows. Do they imagine it will be would be acceptable to pull down flats or house all over the country in a few years because people need to sell but aren't allowed to? I doubt building societies would be happy to find their loans are secured on rubble.

Arb.

It is illogical to only limit re third party renters but no others, IF it is a a needed protection then all parties ought to be protected (personally I do not have much time for EPCs but they are out there and need recognised)

Where I am employed (secondary/tertiary commercial property rental markets) lots of theories swirl about re eventually minimum standards will need to be met, so maybe problem will go away, we will convert all our commercial properties into residential units, adhering to insulation/sound etc standards ,creating a new pool of compliant residential property- shame then no offices for people to work from.

[bungeejumper]

It is illogical to only limit re third party renters but no others, IF it is a a needed protection then all parties ought to be protected (personally I do not have much time for EPCs but they are out there and need recognised)

Where I am employed (secondary/tertiary commercial property rental markets) lots of theories swirl about re eventually minimum standards will need to be met, so maybe problem will go away, we will convert all our commercial properties into residential units, adhering to insulation/sound etc standards ,creating a new pool of compliant residential property- shame then no offices for people to work from.

You are, of course, aware that listed residential buildings are exempt from the EPC requirement? (Too many heat-conserving improvements that the council won't allow to happen, for aesthetic or heritage reasons.) I'd imagine that Edinburgh, like Bath, has plenty of them?

BJ

[Charlottesquare]

It is illogical to only limit re third party renters but no others, IF it is a a needed protection then all parties ought to be protected (personally I do not have much time for EPCs but they are out there and need recognised)

Where I am employed (secondary/tertiary commercial property rental markets) lots of theories swirl about re eventually minimum standards will need to be met, so maybe problem will go away, we will convert all our commercial properties into residential units, adhering to insulation/sound etc standards ,creating a new pool of compliant residential property- shame then no offices for people to work from.

You are, of course, aware that listed residential buildings are exempt from the EPC requirement? (Too many heat-conserving improvements that the council won't allow to happen, for aesthetic or heritage reasons.) I'd imagine that Edinburgh, like Bath, has plenty of them?

BJ

I did not know that but we deal with only Commercial not residential these days- does that apply to providing EPCs for commercial properties before marketing or just residential?

[bungeejumper]

You are, of course, aware that listed residential buildings are exempt from the EPC requirement? (Too many heat-conserving improvements that the council won't allow to happen, for aesthetic or heritage reasons.) I'd imagine that Edinburgh, like Bath, has plenty of them?

I did not know that but we deal with only Commercial not residential these days- does that apply to providing EPCs for commercial properties before marketing or just residential?

I don't know for sure, but I can tell you that when building regs insisted on an industrially-sized ventilation system in a smallish shop that we were converting, listed buildings vetoed it. That's an eighteenth century shop window that you're proposing to put a big ugly an air extractor into, they said, and it isn't going to happen. Eventually the building regs inspector found a loophole in the rules which allowed him to settle for a somewhat less overkill solution, and we all breathed a sigh of relief. And saved ourselves a five figure sum.

There was also an architect who wanted to double-glaze the front of the shop, which would have seemed reasonable to anybody who wasn't aware that listed buildings will nearly always refuse it. Some day, these obstructive rules will be abolished - and rightly so - but for the time being that's the way the law stands. Conservation areas (as distinct from listed buildings) are technically under similar restrictions, but in practice there's a bit more leeway. (Well, in our area anyway. I couldn't speak for Scotland.)

BJ

[Charlottesquare]

I did not know that but we deal with only Commercial not residential these days- does that apply to providing EPCs for commercial properties before marketing or just residential?

I don't know for sure, but I can tell you that when building regs insisted on an industrially-sized ventilation system in a smallish shop that we were converting, listed buildings vetoed it. That's an eighteenth century shop window that you're proposing to put a big ugly an air extractor into, they said, and it isn't going to happen. Eventually the building regs inspector found a loophole in the rules which allowed him to settle for a somewhat less overkill solution, and we all breathed a sigh of relief. And saved ourselves a five figure sum.

There was also an architect who wanted to double-glaze the front of the shop, which would have seemed reasonable to anybody who wasn't aware that listed buildings will nearly always refuse it. Some day, these obstructive rules will be abolished - and rightly so - but for the time being that's the way the law stands. Conservation areas (as distinct from listed buildings) are technically under similar restrictions, but in practice there's a bit more leeway. (Well, in our area anyway. I couldn't speak for Scotland.)

BJ

I am in a conservation area, Victoria Park Conservation Area in North Edinburgh. We can have only wooden sash and case windows , no plastic ones, but you are allowed to have 6mm double glazed sealed glass units ,instead of normal glass, fitted in these. Ours will hopefully get sorted next year, but having parts replaced/ repaired, tightened up re rattles/insulation etc and upgraded lass fitted is not cheap. (And I also have two Victorian dormers on the top floor that also need nearly fully remade.)

These rules are enforced and lack of paperwork will make resale difficult- they even have enforcement pruning any tree over 8 inch diameter at chest height.

[Lootman]

These rules are enforced and lack of paperwork will make resale difficult- they even have enforcement pruning any tree over 8 inch diameter at chest height.

Oh my God, you reminded me. My previous house in London was in a Conservation Area and one rule was that no tree in a garden could be felled if more than 6 feet high! And the council had a Tree Preservation Officer to enforce that. As I recall his name was Mister Pert. I called him something else.

But that was nothing compared to the house I owned in a National Park, and which was Grade 2 listed. The fights between the National Park and the Building Department for that LA were legendary.

[Charlottesquare]

These rules are enforced and lack of paperwork will make resale difficult- they even have enforcement pruning any tree over 8 inch diameter at chest height.

Oh my God, you reminded me. My previous house in London was in a Conservation Area and one rule was that no tree in a garden could be felled if more than 6 feet high! And the council had a Tree Preservation Officer to enforce that. As I recall his name was Mister Pert. I called him something else.

But that was nothing compared to the house I owned in a National Park, and which was Grade 2 listed. The fights between the National Park and the Building Department for that LA were legendary.

When we had a tree warden it was fine, I would scribble him a note of the pruning I proposed he usually said fine, then I got out the ladders and pruned. We have a very, very big old pear tree at foot of the garden that overhangs a12 ft brick wall to neighbours, it tend to need attention every 5 years or so ( we have been here now for 26 years this November)

Now I have to go through planning process to EDC supplying location plan, photos, method statement etc- it is such a faff that I now keep delaying the works that are required, especially as with age my ability up and down ladders with a chainsaw is not as good as it was.

I actually have another to do in front garden later this year (will fell) as its roots are lifting a very large Victorian slab path, but at least it is below the dreaded 8 inch diameter at chest height.

[Lootman]

Oh my God, you reminded me. My previous house in London was in a Conservation Area and one rule was that no tree in a garden could be felled if more than 6 feet high! And the council had a Tree Preservation Officer to enforce that. As I recall his name was Mister Pert. I called him something else.

But that was nothing compared to the house I owned in a National Park, and which was Grade 2 listed. The fights between the National Park and the Building Department for that LA were legendary.

When we had a tree warden it was fine, I would scribble him a note of the pruning I proposed he usually said fine, then I got out the ladders and pruned. We have a very, very big old pear tree at foot of the garden that overhangs a12 ft brick wall to neighbours, it tend to need attention every 5 years or so ( we have been here now for 26 years this November)

Now I have to go through planning process to EDC supplying location plan, photos, method statement etc- it is such a faff that I now keep delaying the works that are required, especially as with age my ability up and down ladders with a chainsaw is not as good as it was.

I actually have another to do in front garden later this year (will fell) as its roots are lifting a very large Victorian slab path, but at least it is below the dreaded 8 inch diameter at chest height.

If a tree was at the back of my house and not visible from the street, then I would just chop it down whatever the size. Little risk in doing that.

But there was a tree in the front garden that was obviously too big but the "tree warden" would only authorise minor pruning rather than the surgery it needed. A couple of years after I sold the place the tree collapsed and could have killed someone rather than, as it happened, crushing a car!

[bungeejumper]

When we had a tree warden it was fine, I would scribble him a note of the pruning I proposed he usually said fine, then I got out the ladders and pruned. We have a very, very big old pear tree at foot of the garden that overhangs a12 ft brick wall to neighbours, it tend to need attention every 5 years or so ( we have been here now for 26 years this November)

Now I have to go through planning process to EDC supplying location plan, photos, method statement etc- it is such a faff that I now keep delaying the works that are required, especially as with age my ability up and down ladders with a chainsaw is not as good as it was.

If a tree was at the back of my house and not visible from the street, then I would just chop it down whatever the size. Little risk in doing that.

But there was a tree in the front garden that was obviously too big but the "tree warden" would only authorise minor pruning rather than the surgery it needed. A couple of years after I sold the place the tree collapsed and could have killed someone rather than, as it happened, crushing a car!

Hmmm, we adopt a fairly muscular approach to lopping our forty-odd fruit trees, some of which are on standard rootstocks so they could grow to thirty feet or more if we let them. (You really don't want a rock-solid warden pear landing on your bonce from that sort of height. ) I must admit that I'd always believed that fruit trees were exempt, but our daughter's cherry tree in Manchester did have a preservation order on it.

It's been 25 years since we felled the fifty foot silver birch that had been planted far too close to our house. (Which is in a conservation area.) The tree preservation officer came out in response to our lopping request, and he immediately ordered its removal. That tree's eighty years old, he said, and its heartwood is rotted out all the way down to the ground, although you can't see it. Get rid of it before it kills somebody. And plant a smaller birch, such as a jacquemontii, a few metres away.

We got a tree surgeon in, and he was absolutely right on all counts. But he did say some other interesting things. Firstly, that his department's aim was to maintain the harmonious relationship between people and trees, which usually meant that if a tree was in the way he would normally OK its removal.

And secondly, that he wouldn't even need to be asked before non-native species such as sycamore or ash were removed. In fact, he looked at our neighbour's ash and wished it gone. I doubt he'd be saying the same thing about ash these days, now that it's under theat from dieback fungus.

BJ

[modellingman]

It's back.

The Renters Reform Bill received its second reading in the Commons on Monday. However, I suspect it may well get overtaken by events (like a general election) and, even if not brought down by that, it is likely to be some time after it receives royal assent before many of its provisions are enacted.

Government has conceded that the removal of Section 21 won't be implemented until the backlog in the court system improves. In addition, setting up the new ombudsman and the register of landlords and properties will all take time and require consultation. The Lords (where the bill has not yet started its progress) may also have something to say about the bill and its many provisions.

Googling "Renters Reform Bill" on a news site will bring up lots of hits on the bill and its progress. Here's a couple as a starter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67187411

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... keep-a-pet

modellingman

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
I've just looked at this thread again. There are quite a number of off-topic posts here despite a previous warning. As they've been on here for a while I don't think it's appropriate to delete them now, but further off-topic discussions do risk deletion (chas49)