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Moving to all Electric

Making your money go further
AF62
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388322

Postby AF62 » February 21st, 2021, 5:40 am

taken2often wrote:Your right, but I was talking about the time the Fire Service arrived. They should have instantly seen that this was a fire outwith all norms and called for evacuation.


I think the Fire Brigade were between a rock and a hard place; follow tried and tested set procedures despite the scene in front of them or do something nobody had trained for and hope it works. The former clearly didn’t work but the latter puts the rescuers at risk of death and injury and those in charge liable to manslaughter charges if it goes wrong.

The Fire Brigade leadership was rightly criticised for saying they wouldn’t do anything different in the future based on their experience that night, but that isn’t the same as trying to create a rescue strategy on the night with no forethought.

taken2often wrote:Also What you mention means that all tall buildings should have Resident emergency teams who know, who and where the vulnerable are. This would be easier than recladding or removing cladding from thousands of building at a cost lots of people cannot afford.


In such buildings nobody even knows the names of their neighbours, let alone whether they are vulnerable. Heck, the council who owned the building and rented the flats out didn’t even know who was living there!

The cost of removing and replacing the cladding should fall to all the companies who distorted the truth about the products supplied, chose inappropriate products, or failed to install the products correctly. But that won’t happen as the crooks will just hide behind the protection of their corporate shield.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388398

Postby taken2often » February 21st, 2021, 12:58 pm

Think the Brigade are in the current position of no one making real decisions anymore. A woman died in a hole in Scotland a few years ago due to management indecision, change of rules, protocols etc. Competent fireperson's standing round for hours not allowed to rescue her.

The client and their team decided and approved the cladding. They ask the questions, determine the quality and what they want to pay. No doubt the manufacturers supplied brochures on their product, but only put the limitations in fine print on the back page. Then you have the contractor and the current theme cheap cheap cheap to get the contract. The council obviously want to unload the blame on to any one other than them.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388400

Postby Mike4 » February 21st, 2021, 1:08 pm

taken2often wrote:Think the Brigade are in the current position of no one making real decisions anymore. A woman died in a hole in Scotland a few years ago due to management indecision, change of rules, protocols etc. Competent fireperson's standing round for hours not allowed to rescue her.

The client and their team decided and approved the cladding. They ask the questions, determine the quality and what they want to pay. No doubt the manufacturers supplied brochures on their product, but only put the limitations in fine print on the back page. Then you have the contractor and the current theme cheap cheap cheap to get the contract. The council obviously want to unload the blame on to any one other than them.


I agree, this is a manifestation of the British disease. Always buy the cheapest even if only by a penny, look no further than the price (especially in the world of building contracts). We are all guilty at times of this I'm sure.

Thing is, there is no-one to blame other than British human nature and our predilection for always buying the cheapest. This leads to never-ending cheese-paring on quality with no-one ever calling a halt to the endless and corresponding reductions in quality. It that frog-boiling thing again.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388411

Postby Snorvey » February 21st, 2021, 1:51 pm

swill453 wrote:All I can say is that your old gas boiler must have been hugely inefficient. We have a 2 year old condensing combi boiler in our 3 bedroom semi in central Scotland and pay £57 per month for gas and electricity combined.

(And we tend to be in the house all day).

Scott.


As I've said before I'm all electric in the north east of Scotland. In a 3 bed semi, We run 2 30 year old storage heaters (where the insulation has likely broken down and are due to be replaced this year (Probably with .27% more efficeny dimplex quantum heaters) . We also have a 120l hot water tank, again on E7.

All my energy is renewable according to Scot power. The house is warm, the heaters are quiet and need no maintenance and they're piss easy and about £1500 to replace. My DD fluctuates around the £70-£80 pm which I think is fine. The house is well insulated (now it is!)

taken2often
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388431

Postby taken2often » February 21st, 2021, 2:43 pm

Thanks about getting back to the point. The Regulator must be allowing the energy companies to make these wild statements about only green energy coming up the wire. Some are even paying extra for green.

As i previously stated, in the last two coldest weeks I have been running at £2.25 per day for all my power needs, heating 24/7 constant hot water on the basic best tariff.

Due to my interest in this subject I have been inundated with adverts and information about green and electric energy. This has got me thinking

What if Gas Boilers have the VW effect in that the 90% efficiency is only possible in ideal pristine conditions. How do you quantify loss of heat through the piping system and drafts. How much extra energy due you really use when you have a time clock. An air heater convector gives instant comfort and switches off when its thermostat reaches temperature. A wet radiator system absorbs heat into the fabric of the building until the whole room meets the thermostatic level. Could this explain the low cost of gas KWH in relation to Electric being on 24/7 with a 100% efficiency.

The Calorific Value has always made me nervous as well. Texas is turning out to be interesting, perhaps putting green logic to the test.

Mike4
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388436

Postby Mike4 » February 21st, 2021, 3:00 pm

taken2often wrote:What if Gas Boilers have the VW effect in that the 90% efficiency is only possible in ideal pristine conditions.



What makes you think that phrase "What if" belongs there at the beginning?

AF62
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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388477

Postby AF62 » February 21st, 2021, 4:51 pm

taken2often wrote:Think the Brigade are in the current position of no one making real decisions anymore. A woman died in a hole in Scotland a few years ago due to management indecision, change of rules, protocols etc. Competent fireperson's standing round for hours not allowed to rescue her.


Perhaps you should ask the widow and family of Paul Metcalf why there are such rules and protocols.

Mr Metcalf was a competent member of the Lancashire fire brigade when he and a number of his colleagues tried to save a student from drowning, but unfortunately he got caught on an underwater obstacle and drowned.

But anyway, back to the topic.

taken2often wrote:Texas is turning out to be interesting, perhaps putting green logic to the test.


Not sure it is "green logic" that caused Texas to detach itself from the rest of the American grid, so meaning they had no backup; more like profiteering.

Wind shutdowns accounted for less than 13% of the outages in Texas, with the primary reason for electricity shortages being issues with the natural gas system - but that doesn't make a good story on Twitter.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388500

Postby dspp » February 21st, 2021, 6:35 pm

taken2often wrote:Thanks about getting back to the point. ................An air heater convector gives instant comfort and switches off when its thermostat reaches temperature. A wet radiator system absorbs heat into the fabric of the building until the whole room meets the thermostatic level. Could this explain the low cost of gas KWH in relation to Electric being on 24/7 with a 100% efficiency.

The Calorific Value has always made me nervous as well. Texas is turning out to be interesting, perhaps putting green logic to the test.


Sigh.

The temperature controller that switches on/off the gas-fired-boiler-feeding-liquid-radiators is the same temperature controller that switches on/off electric-air-fans. It doesn't care whether the room is becoming warm because of a wood-fired-stove was lit, or whether there are two teenagers engaging in a romp on the sofa, or whether the sun shone through the window, or what. The room is the same room in both case, leaking more or less heat into the external world, via better or worse insulated walls, that have more or less ability to hold heat.

I often bewail the poor level of science education in this country. If I had my way children who could not explain this stuff would not graduate school (or some other stuff that I am not supposed to even think). Arghhhhh ...........*

taken2often wrote:Texas is turning out to be interesting, perhaps putting green logic to the test.


Most of what went off in Texas / ERCOT was oil/gas wells freezing due to the (very watery) liquids coming out of the reservoirs along with the gas/oil, literally freezing into either ice, or slush puppies, or hydrates. Or similar stuff happening at the power stations.

taken2often wrote:The Regulator must be allowing the energy companies to make these wild statements


The regulators know the science/engineering/economics of all this, they are not stupid. Unlike the politicians who control them, and the media and voters who scream and scream and etc. (see *my point *)

regards, dspp

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388504

Postby xeny » February 21st, 2021, 6:45 pm

AF62 wrote:Not sure it is "green logic" that caused Texas to detach itself from the rest of the American grid, so meaning they had no backup; more like profiteering.


This article suggests it is due to a dislike of federal regulation: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02 ... heres-why/

"By purposely keeping its grid within the borders of Texas, the state limited the impact of federal standards and regulations. This deep-seated aversion to regulation recently prompted former US Energy secretary and Texas Governor Rick Perry to quip, "Texans would be without electricity for longer than three days to keep the federal government out of their business.”"

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388505

Postby swill453 » February 21st, 2021, 6:46 pm

dspp wrote:The temperature controller that switches on/off the gas-fired-boiler-feeding-liquid-radiators is the same temperature controller that switches on/off electric-air-fans. It doesn't care whether the room is becoming warm because of a wood-fired-stove was lit, or whether there are two teenagers engaging in a romp on the sofa, or whether the sun shone through the window, or what. The room is the same room in both case, leaking more or less heat into the external world, via better or worse insulated walls, that have more or less ability to hold heat.

Yes, an interesting way of looking at it is that the only heat you ever pay for, over the long term, is that which escapes your house, through doors, walls, roof, windows, cracks etc.

Easily answers the questions of - how important is insulation (very) and is it better to leave the heating on all day even if you're not at home (no of course not).

Scott.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388560

Postby taken2often » February 21st, 2021, 10:35 pm

DSPP makes a statement about thermostats, that I do not agree with. A 3kw Fan heater sitting in the middle of the room, will raise the comfort level very fast and then switch off. A wall mounted radiator of any type takes time to heat up, that heat is being absorb by the fabric off the building so it can take some time to bring the room up to comfort level.

This brings me to your point Scott. With a time clock, obviously depending on insulation and drafts the temperature could be well below the recovery time to bring the room up. My flat never goes below 16 degrees, even then it can take some time to come up to 21. Ok I have high ceilings and tall and wide windows, but I now find my running cost spot on.

It is considered one of the best systems under good insulation condition the Air Sourced or ground sourced heat pump, combined with a good concrete based underfloor system that takes very little power to maintain the mass heat once established at the beginning of the season. This is run as a constant at the preset temp

The idea that switched off saves money switched on costs money is held by many

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388686

Postby dspp » February 22nd, 2021, 11:53 am

taken2often wrote:DSPP makes a statement about thermostats, that I do not agree with. A 3kw Fan heater sitting in the middle of the room, will raise the comfort level very fast and then switch off. A wall mounted radiator of any type takes time to heat up, that heat is being absorb by the fabric off the building so it can take some time to bring the room up to comfort level.

This brings me to your point Scott. With a time clock, obviously depending on insulation and drafts the temperature could be well below the recovery time to bring the room up. My flat never goes below 16 degrees, even then it can take some time to come up to 21. Ok I have high ceilings and tall and wide windows, but I now find my running cost spot on.

It is considered one of the best systems under good insulation condition the Air Sourced or ground sourced heat pump, combined with a good concrete based underfloor system that takes very little power to maintain the mass heat once established at the beginning of the season. This is run as a constant at the preset temp

The idea that switched off saves money switched on costs money is held by many


This is a matter of science & engineering, so we can determine a correct answer if we examine things carefully.

Let's say the room starts at 15C. The thermostat is set to 20C. The fan heater is switched on, and runs for (say) 15-mins and raises the local air temperature to the 20C, and the fan heater switches off.

Now the local air temperature is 20C, but the plaster & bricks & woodwork & general building fabric are only just a smidge over 15C. So what happens is that heat starts quite rapidly leaking into the building fabric. Typically the thermostat will have a hysterisis of about 1C, so when the local air temperature falls to 19C the fan will come back on. Basically for the first few hours the fan will be operating pretty constantly bringing the adjacent parts of the building fabric up to 20C.

You can now see that see far as the thermostat is concerned it does not matter what the heat source is. Whether it is a gas-fed wet loop radiator or a electric fan heater, or a pair of exercising sweaty teenagers, it is all the same to the thermostat.

As an extension of this you will now be able to explain to your friends & family why it is better - if possible - to install insulation on the outside of a building's fabric, rather than the inside. As a thought experiment consider what the local air temperature curve will look like in a small room as the sun crosses the window .....

regards,
dspp

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#388875

Postby taken2often » February 22nd, 2021, 7:02 pm

I see what you say, but I am on about time clocks. I keep all my rooms at a minimum of 16. During the last few weeks we have had out side temps of -2.
Who knows what the interior temp would be if heating off from say 8.30 until 6.00pm. The fan heater would give you the quick comfort boost but would have to stay on longer. Cold always attracts heat. I just think if you keep a base heat it is cheaper to get up to temp. This is whats showing up on my usage.

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Re: Moving to all Electric

#390053

Postby taken2often » February 25th, 2021, 7:23 pm

Watched a YouTube video. Trust the Americans to have a name for it Hyhdronic Heating. This is moving from old style gas boilers to the new Condensing Boilers. This person was saying that heating engineers were not explaining to the client. The difference in operation between them, and in turn they did not get the benefit. The problem time clocks. These new boilers need time because they operate at lower temps. So they should be on all the time but operate within a range of temps, say 15/16 when no one in and 21 when in. This would be the most economical. So regardless of system this is the most efficient. My new electric system seems to be very cost effective using this system. The really cold weather it was operating at £2.46 per day. With the change of weather this dropped during the last week to £1.40 and that's no less than 16c minimum all rooms 24/7.


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