Energy costs. Oh dear.......

[SebsCat]

I was pretty stunned when I saw the price of solar panels the other day - like £70 a pop.

And as the FT and folks on here have suggest, the bulk of the cost is labour/scaffolding. So I reckon I could get loads of panels in my garden, not all facing south, but mostly. Some screwed to fences, some screening around a patio section etc. I've even thought of a pergola type structure along the back of the house with solar panels along the roof.

I guess the issue is connecting them all up together.

This FT article got me thinking. The planners would probably find some way to be upset about it though.

https://www.ft.com/content/2ea6bf6d-04e ... 6431cfc7bf

It has always been my understanding that the local planning and building folks do not get involved in structures in your garden as long as they are deemed to be temporary. So for example when I put in a summer house my LA did not care as it was not bolted to the ground and so could be moved at short notice.

The same for solar panels on your lawn, perhaps?

Provided they meet certain criteria, outbuildings such as your summer house would be considered permitted development so you don't need planning permission or prior approval from the LA. Same goes with solar panels - guidance for standalone installations can be found at https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permis ... k-of-flats. In relation to Tedx's idea, the following would seem to be relevent:

- Only the first stand alone solar installation will be permitted development. Further installations will require planning permission.
- No part of the installation should be higher than four metres.
- The installation should be at least 5m from the boundary of the property.
- The size of the array should be no more that 9 square metres or 3m wide by 3m deep.

Guidance for installing on buildings (including outbuildings) is at https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permis ... a-building

[gryffron]

I was pretty stunned when I saw the price of solar panels the other day - like £70 a pop.
And as the FT and folks on here have suggest, the bulk of the cost is labour/scaffolding.

Inverters used to be another expensive bit. I see they’re down to around £500 now.

Gryff

[Tedx]

I had to BBC fact check that .....and it's right enough. £500.

In fact a quick scope around revealed a full 3.6kw system for £1600.

https://www.green2go.co.uk/3-36kw-8-pan ... IuEALw_wcB

[Hallucigenia]

Modelling from UCL/Exeter suggests that for much of the world solar + storage is already the cheapest source of electricity, and within 6 years that will be true of everywhere bar Scandinavia/NL. It's particularly impressive to think that solar will be the best option even for Greenland...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-41971-7

[DrFfybes]

The crucial bit of the article...

Between 2010 and 2020, the cost of solar PV fell by 15% each year, representing a technological learning rate of around 20% per doubling of installed capacity8. At the same time, the installed capacity has risen by 25% per year, causing and partly caused by these cost reductions. Meanwhile, onshore wind capacity grew by 12% a year, with a learning rate of 10% per doubling of capacity. If these rates of rapid co-evolution are maintained,

I've emphasised the relevant word.

Technology development is not linear nor transferrable. Moore's law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law is one of the few exceptions (so far) but most power systems have stalled - gas boilers, combustion engines, etc. Renewables are getting cheaper, but the invisible elephant seems to be the huge cost spike between 2020 - 2023 which is only now getting back to pre-covid levels, showing that supply and demand is still at play and I believe the continued price drops per unit generated will stall.

Storage is the biggie - solve that on a local scale (not grid level - that is too complicated and expensive) with millions of 70kWh batteries parked outside every home and then we're on to a winner.

Paul

[funduffer]

I love solar, but the problem is that at high latitudes it is pretty hopeless in winter, when power is needed for heating. In the summer, on average, I have a massive surplus of solar energy and in the winter I have a huge shortfall. A home battery would help, but will not solve this problem.

This is why wind energy from the grid is so attractive and complementary to solar. In the winter, at high latitudes, we often have masses of wind power. Although we also get extended periods of calm, they don't last that long (days / a week or 2), and we can import power from nearby areas where the wind is still blowing. The number and size of interconnectors with the UK has really grown in the last few years.

For zero emissions for power generation, we need solar + wind + a nuclear base + plus enough grid storage and interconnectors to tide us over lean winter spells.

The only expensive one is nuclear.

FD

[scotview]

I love solar, but the problem is that at high latitudes it is pretty hopeless in winter, when power is needed for heating. In the summer, on average, I have a massive surplus of solar energy and in the winter I have a huge shortfall. A home battery would help, but will not solve this problem.

This is why wind energy from the grid is so attractive and complementary to solar. In the winter, at high latitudes, we often have masses of wind power. Although we also get extended periods of calm, they don't last that long (days / a week or 2), and we can import power from nearby areas where the wind is still blowing. The number and size of interconnectors with the UK has really grown in the last few years.

For zero emissions for power generation, we need solar + wind + a nuclear base + plus enough grid storage and interconnectors to tide us over lean winter spells.

The only expensive one is nuclear.

FD

Great practical post funduffer, thanks. Considering the UK, there will eventually be a massive installed nameplate capacity for wind and solar. The problem, as you say, is that on a cold January night with no wind, none of that nameplate capacity will be producing anything of note. This issue will be compounded when all UK heating is transferred to electricity and a fleet of EVs charging on that same cold, dark, still January night.

[DrFfybes]

For zero emissions for power generation, we need solar + wind + a nuclear base + plus enough grid storage and interconnectors to tide us over lean winter spells.

FD

After last night I'm wondering about fitting some turbines in my downpipes. Not completely frivolous - when it isn't sunny it is often raining so perhaps some surface water driven wheels would help. They ran Mills like that for decades.

Paul

[Howard]

I love solar, but the problem is that at high latitudes it is pretty hopeless in winter, when power is needed for heating. In the summer, on average, I have a massive surplus of solar energy and in the winter I have a huge shortfall. A home battery would help, but will not solve this problem.

This is why wind energy from the grid is so attractive and complementary to solar. In the winter, at high latitudes, we often have masses of wind power. Although we also get extended periods of calm, they don't last that long (days / a week or 2), and we can import power from nearby areas where the wind is still blowing. The number and size of interconnectors with the UK has really grown in the last few years.

For zero emissions for power generation, we need solar + wind + a nuclear base + plus enough grid storage and interconnectors to tide us over lean winter spells.

The only expensive one is nuclear.

FD

Great practical post funduffer, thanks. Considering the UK, there will eventually be a massive installed nameplate capacity for wind and solar. The problem, as you say, is that on a cold January night with no wind, none of that nameplate capacity will be producing anything of note. This issue will be compounded when all UK heating is transferred to electricity and a fleet of EVs charging on that same cold, dark, still January night.

Our BEV would be in the garage and available to offer a significant amount of its 65kWh battery back to the grid given the right tariff. Like a lot of second cars it probably wouldn't be going out in the cold the next morning. Once there are, say, 20 million BEVs in the UK that's a lot of available power. (Apparently there are currently around 40 million vehicles in the UK of which over 33 million are cars and over 1 million are BEVS, so a little way to go!).

regards

Howard

[Tedx]

For zero emissions for power generation, we need solar + wind + a nuclear base + plus enough grid storage and interconnectors to tide us over lean winter spells.

FD

After last night I'm wondering about fitting some turbines in my downpipes. Not completely frivolous - when it isn't sunny it is often raining so perhaps some surface water driven wheels would help. They ran Mills like that for decades.

Paul

I did read an article about inline hydro on mains water pipes.

https://youtu.be/4TBuF5R42Uc?si=-srmdVmHqadXLzOh

[UncleEbenezer]

For zero emissions for power generation, we need solar + wind + a nuclear base + plus enough grid storage and interconnectors to tide us over lean winter spells.

FD

After last night I'm wondering about fitting some turbines in my downpipes. Not completely frivolous - when it isn't sunny it is often raining so perhaps some surface water driven wheels would help. They ran Mills like that for decades.

Paul

I have a weir immediately outside. It used to provide power for this very building. When I wake up in the morning, I can hear from its roar if there's been serious rain!

I'd love to reinstate power generation there. The engineering might even be made a community project: recruit local sixth-formers to a practical and CV-building exercise. But getting permission for it seems to be a non-starter. Perhaps I should write to Mr Miliband?

[Hallucigenia]

I have a weir immediately outside. It used to provide power for this very building. When I wake up in the morning, I can hear from its roar if there's been serious rain!

I'd love to reinstate power generation there. The engineering might even be made a community project: recruit local sixth-formers to a practical and CV-building exercise. But getting permission for it seems to be a non-starter. Perhaps I should write to Mr Miliband?

There was a bit of a fad for run-of-river hydropower on Highland estates about 20 years ago, helped by favourable FITs, so there was certainly quite an industry around it at that point but I don't know what's happened to it since. Depends where you are but SEPA remain pretty relaxed about schemes <100kW (so around 0.35GWh/year) :
https://www.sepa.org.uk/media/383805/gu ... chemes.pdf