Export price of feed-in tariffs.

[88V8]

I have no dog in this race, as we have no panels and no battery, but I thought this of interest although perhaps the wrong forum....

In the (paper) Times last weekend, an article on feed-in tariffs where the variation in what the suppliers pay you seemed quite striking. I also did not realise that you could import from one supplier but export to another, as implied by the Bulb pricing... how does that work??

Per kwh....

7.5p Octopus
5.6p Bulb (own customers)
3.0p Bulb (non-customers)
5.5p Eon (new EON solar customers)
3.0p Eon (other)
5.5p Scottish Power
4.0p Ovo
3.5p SSE
3.5p Shell
3.2p British Gas
3.0p Utilite
3.0p Avro
2.0p Utility Warehouse
1.5p EDF

I dare say there are wrinkles to this in terms of the incoming tariffs and consequent overall cost/benefit, but a six times spread in export price, so quite a difference if one is trying to calculate payback.

V8

[servodude]

I also did not realise that you could import from one supplier but export to another, as implied by the Bulb pricing... how does that work??

I'm guessing that there's enough daylight between feed-in and consumption charges that there's no opportunity for arbitrage?

It makes it feel like there's probably too much going to middle men - the variation being a marketing feature of the margins in the cost of production and the price paid

-sd

[scrumpyjack]

I have always used a different supplier to the FIT etc as opposed to my electricity supply. No problems at all. Originally this was because my electricity supplier back in 2011 when I installed the panels did not do FIT.

I get the standard 50% assumed export as that is what the default was then and do not have an export meter, and the export rate is about 4p.
I simply give E.ON my generated elec meter reading every 3 months.

Dealing with it separately makes it much easier when I want to change electricity supplier.

[genou]

Something has been lost in translation here, I think. FiT payments are made at rates set by OFGEM, which are based on when the installation became eligible and how big it is. There should be no variation based on who is processing your payments.

[Bminusrob]

I wonder what will happen when electric cars are used as electricity storage, and get used by the electricity companies to smooth out surges in demand. If I charge my car using electricity costing 32p/kWh, but only get 5p feed-in tarriff, I am on an even bigger loser than simply the wear and tear on the batteries by excess charge and discharge. On the other hand, if the FIT is 5p/kWh, but I get 32p/kWh from my car battery, then I know what I will do.

[UncleEbenezer]

I wonder what will happen when electric cars are used as electricity storage, and get used by the electricity companies to smooth out surges in demand. If I charge my car using electricity costing 32p/kWh, but only get 5p feed-in tarriff, I am on an even bigger loser than simply the wear and tear on the batteries by excess charge and discharge. On the other hand, if the FIT is 5p/kWh, but I get 32p/kWh from my car battery, then I know what I will do.

Um, isn't the FIT pure bribe, and on top of whatever you get paid for actual generation?

I expect that if and when consumers (whether their cars or any other batteries) get involved in grid-scale storage, there will be incentives to cooperate built into their tariffs.

[AF62]

I wonder what will happen when electric cars are used as electricity storage, and get used by the electricity companies to smooth out surges in demand.

It won’t ever happen.

1. Cars would have to be designed to be able to export electricity.
2. Home chargers and their connection would have to be designed to export.
3. Most EVs are only plugged into the mains for about 5% of the time - and that is overnight when there are not surges in demand and the owner actually wants to fill the battery.

[Bminusrob]

I wonder what will happen when electric cars are used as electricity storage, and get used by the electricity companies to smooth out surges in demand.

It won’t ever happen.

1. Cars would have to be designed to be able to export electricity.
2. Home chargers and their connection would have to be designed to export.
3. Most EVs are only plugged into the mains for about 5% of the time - and that is overnight when there are not surges in demand and the owner actually wants to fill the battery.

Ofgem don't agree with you. This is their take on it:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/c ... g-charging

EDF, Ovo and others are selling it.

[AF62]

I wonder what will happen when electric cars are used as electricity storage, and get used by the electricity companies to smooth out surges in demand.

It won’t ever happen.

1. Cars would have to be designed to be able to export electricity.
2. Home chargers and their connection would have to be designed to export.
3. Most EVs are only plugged into the mains for about 5% of the time - and that is overnight when there are not surges in demand and the owner actually wants to fill the battery.

Ofgem don't agree with you. This is their take on it:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/c ... g-charging

EDF, Ovo and others are selling it.

Of course they are looking into it, but will it ever happen in a mass market way. Nope.

Leaving aside the fact that the vast majority of cars are not, and will not be equipped to do it - why would you mess around plugging your car in every time you park to perhaps earn 50p?

And that is assuming that you have equipped every station car park bay and every work place car bay, and every shopping centre bay, and every roadside parking space with a feed point - as those are the locations the cars will be when the surges occur and electricity is needed.

Would you go through the hassle of leaving your ICE at a petrol filling station and connect it to the pump every time you parked it on the off chance that BP might be running short of petrol at 11.30 that morning and they would like to suck some out of your car and then put it back later? I think you would politely decline.

[scrumpyjack]

Given the shortening of the life/capacity of the vehicle battery it is unlikely to be attractive to vehicle owners, unless paid a very high rate per kw. The Ofgem paper suggests 30p per unit payment rate so the grid can avoid having to start up expensive backup power. More likely I would think that the grid could be enabled to suspend vehicle charging at times of high demand, rather than draw power from the vehicle batteries.

[UncleEbenezer]

Given the shortening of the life/capacity of the vehicle battery

I expect that's becoming rapidly less of an issue, as R&D produces better batteries. It may end up looking like the limited cycles on solid state storage that have had some of us spurning SSD in favour of oldfashioned discs.

[funduffer]

Something has been lost in translation here, I think. FiT payments are made at rates set by OFGEM, which are based on when the installation became eligible and how big it is. There should be no variation based on who is processing your payments.

The confusion arises because 88V8 has quoted rates for SEG (Smart Export Guarantees) rather than FIT (Feed-in tariffs)!

FIT is the old scheme (pre-2019) controlled by OFGEM and SEG is the new scheme (post 2019) run by the electricity companies.

I have an EV and solar panels. I have an EV tariff from Octopus which allows me to charge the car for 4 hours each night at 5p per kWh.(That's roughly 110miles of range). No doubt this rate will change after the fixed deal I have that runs until September!

For solar, I can't have Octopus's 7.5p/kWh SEG because I have their EV tariff and they won't let me have both!

So I use Scottish Power's 5.5p/kWh SEG instead.

This means effectively I can export excess power to the grid during the day/summer at 5.5p, and buy it back at night at 5p. (Net cost -0.5p per kWh)

I also have a Zappi charger, which allows me to charge the EV using excess solar power during the day/summer. This gives me the flexibility to charge more or less when I want at either 0p per kWh (solar during the day/summer) or -0.5p per kWh (export/overnight).

The only time I pay for charging the car is on long journeys where I have to find a public charger. With a 250m+ range car, this is not very often as I don't do many long journeys. Public chargers range from free (at some supermarkets) to as high as 60p per kWh, which works out at about 15p per mile - comparable to diesel/petrol I think.

However I wouldn't own an EV if I didn't have a home charger!

Also, I am not interested in using my EV battery to power the grid. Preserving battery life needs to be carefully managed, so unnecessary charging/discharging doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

FD

[AF62]

More likely I would think that the grid could be enabled to suspend vehicle charging at times of high demand, rather than draw power from the vehicle batteries.

Most people charge their cars overnight when there isn’t peak demand, and those who are charging during the day are likely doing so at commercial rapid chargers during a journey so both they and the commercial operators would undoubtedly be upset if they were ‘cut off’ from a service they had paid for.

[88V8]

Something has been lost in translation here, I think. FiT payments are made at rates set by OFGEM, which are based on when the installation became eligible and how big it is. There should be no variation based on who is processing your payments.

The confusion arises because 88V8 has quoted rates for SEG (Smart Export Guarantees) rather than FIT (Feed-in tariffs)!

Oops.
Guilty as charged.
Actually, quite surprised to see that I am only three years out of date - FiT closed to new entrants in 2019, replaced by SEG

V8

[gryffron]

I have no dog in this race, as we have no panels and no battery….
I also did not realise that you could import from one supplier but export to another, as implied by the Bulb pricing... how does that work??

I have no solar or batteries either. But my smart meter has a pull and a push reading. The latter still shows 0.

So it sounds like the separate charging could be easily implemented with existing meters.

Gryff

[funduffer]

I have no dog in this race, as we have no panels and no battery….
I also did not realise that you could import from one supplier but export to another, as implied by the Bulb pricing... how does that work??

I have no solar or batteries either. But my smart meter has a pull and a push reading. The latter still shows 0.

So it sounds like the separate charging could be easily implemented with existing meters.

Gryff

Provided you have a working smart meter it is easily implemented.

You have an import reading which determines your bill for your main energy supplier. (In my case Octopus)

Then you have an export reading, which determines how much you receive from your SEG supplier for exported solar power. (in my case Scottish Power)

The accounts are completely separate.

One point to note, is that the 3 SEG suppliers I have used since I first got solar panels in Dec 2020 (Bulb, OVO, Scottish Power) all insist on manual reading of the meter for export. I was surprised they didn't just read it remotely directfrom the meter. I am guessing this is because it is just too expensive for them to gain access to the meter for the relatively small amounts of power.

FD

[MickR]

Just picking up on the original post, I've had solar panels since around 2010, so I get the FIT payment for the electricity I generate plus an export payment of 3.95p per kilowatt from E.on. My panels were installed without an export meter, so it's assumed I export 50% of the electricity I generate

Does anyone know if I can shop around for a supplier who can take over the contract so I keep my FIT payments as is, and also provide a better export tariff? Would they insist on installing a meter to measure the actual amount exported?

[Tortoise1000]

Does anyone know if I can shop around for a supplier who can take over the contract so I keep my FIT payments as is, and also provide a better export tariff? Would they insist on installing a meter to measure the actual amount exported?

https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants ... in-tariff/

T

[scrumpyjack]

I see from my latest FIT statement today that I now get 60.23p per kwh that my panels generate, even though I use virtually all the electricity myself, and also get 4.25p for 50% of my output which i am deemed to export even though I export virtually nothing. What a crazy scheme, but I should not look a gift horse in the mouth

[funduffer]

Well, after a period of pitiful SEG rates for exported solar power, things have suddenly dramatically improved.

Examples (not comprehensive):

Octopus are offering 15p per kWh, if they also supply your electricity.

Scottish Power also offer 15p, but also 12p if they don't supply your power

Then there's British Gas at 6.4p.

These rates are substantially better than those that were on offer just 9 months ago.

Luckily I switched my SEG account to Scottish Power last year, so I now receive 12p per kWh. This is worth about £300 per year to me.

On the supply side, I have a cheap overnight tariff with Octopus (7.5p per kWh).

I like to think that I am selling excess electricity during the daytime at 12p and buying it back at night at 7.5p. I use about 1500kWh per year at night (mainly to charge the EV) and export about 2500kWh of excess solar per year.

With electricity rates as they are now, I think my solar panels, which I purchased at end of 2020, will pay back in about 5 or 6 years rather than the 8 or 9 years I was forecasting at purchase.

Bottom line: if you are using SEG to get money for your excess solar then now is the time to review and switch!

FD