Energy costs. Oh dear.......

[staffordian]

...but it was also in the back of my mind that we had a large pair of heavy, lined curtains at the back of our 'other room' in the knocked-through configuration, that offered up an opportunity to install an additional curtain-rail 'above and behind' the knocked-through dividing-wall that sits centrally to our large downstairs living area.

The idea behind this test was that for the sake of around £25 for a nice-looking curtain-rail, and the drilling of six holes to hold the rail-brackets above the wall-arch area, and where the rail and rail-brackets would then normally be 'invisible' from the side of the knocked-through rooms where we'd normally be located in our sitting area, it would be an interesting low-cost and low-impact experiment to see if halving that large knocked-through living space with a pair of heavy, lined-curtains would then allow the undersized-radiator in that 'thermally reduced' living space to be more efficiently heated.

And what a job it's done...

We did something similar in our previous house. The stairs went off the lounge meaning we were heating up the stairs and landing with our lounge radiators and/or gas fire. A heavy curtain at the bottom of the stairs not only cut our heating costs but greatly improved comfort by reducing the draughts caused by cool air tumbling down the stairs and into the lounge.

[Tedx]

Todays FT provided a map of the UKs installed and planned floating and fixed offshore wind capacity

https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/im ... =490&dpr=1


Source: Financial Times

[scotview]

I have a chap coming over tomorrow from home energy Scotland to discuss batteries, heat pumps and solar panels with me. I roughly estimate that if it all goes ahead, my energy bills could be near zero.....or certainly vastly reduced.

How did your meeting with the Home Energy Scotland guy go ?

[Tedx]

I have a chap coming over tomorrow from home energy Scotland to discuss batteries, heat pumps and solar panels with me. I roughly estimate that if it all goes ahead, my energy bills could be near zero.....or certainly vastly reduced.

How did your meeting with the Home Energy Scotland guy go ?

Yeah, it was good. The guy seemed to know what he was talking about and we were pretty much on the same page. After the initial chat, he went around the house (including the loft), taking notes and photos etc we then had another chat where we discussed what was available. The consultation was free and he'll be providing me with a full report and be on hand shouldci take his recommendations forward.

The consultation did save me having to get an initial EPC, although I still have to get one post work completion.

He reckoned I'd get the report in the next few days.

[Tedx]

My lowest ever recorded useage since 01/01/2019 was in 2023 @ 6655kw. This is about 15% below the highest useage in the year to December 2020 (the other bills pre energy crisis were almost the same, give or take a few units)

2023 was also by some margin my highest ever bill - 67% above the lowest ever in the year to December 2019 and 37% above the bill to December 2022.

Ouch!

...and I consider ourselves to be at the lighter end of the useage range. There's a large family on youtube that live around here, and they were moaning that they were £1000pm a year ago.

[servodude]

There's a large family on youtube that live around here, and they were moaning that they were £1000pm a year ago.

I'm guessing that some of that must be offset by their cannabis output?

[Tedx]

Renewable technologies generated the equivalent of 113% of Scotland’s overall electricity consumption in 2022, new statistics show.

This is the highest recorded to date, and a 26 percentage point increase compared to 2021.

https://www.gov.scot/news/record-renewa ... gy-output/

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/renewables ... first-time

[Tedx]

The the least 10 years, the lowest US gas futures have ever been was in July 2020 at the height of the pandemic and the highest was $9.35 in August 22 when the energy crisis was at it's peak.

They're now sitting at $1.68 after hitting the lowest mark since July 2020 due to the combination of augmented production levels and subdued demand. Gas wells have managed to resume operations, driving production back to almost record levels post the severe cold snap in mid-January. Additionally, technical issues at Freeport LNG's export plant have hampered gas flow to the country's LNG export facilities, and a return to record levels is not expected until the plant is fully operational. Moreover, recent government data showed storage levels remain 10.6% higher than the seasonal average.

UK and European gas futures have also fallen dramatically from their 2022 peaks and are trading in a more 'normal' range (i.e. pre pandemic). This is somewhat of a rhetorical question....but WHY am I paying so much for my energy?

To parphrase from the movie 'Lock, Stock and 2 Smoking Barrels...'Charles, get the rifle out. We're being f****d'

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/natural-gas

[Tedx]

Hmmm.

My Scottish Power heat pump quote has piqued my interest.

Mitsubishi 5kw pump, 200l water tank, 8 radiators. Fully fitted and including £199 for a 7year warranty.

£10, 649.

What do others think?

[UncleEbenezer]

Hmmm.

My Scottish Power heat pump quote has piqued my interest.

Mitsubishi 5kw pump, 200l water tank, 8 radiators. Fully fitted and including £199 for a 7year warranty.

£10, 649.

What do others think?

Do your existing boiler and radiators need replacing?

Do you (Jocks) get the same government incentives (or similar) as England?

If that's yes and yes, it looks like a no-brainer.

[Tedx]

Hmmm.

My Scottish Power heat pump quote has piqued my interest.

Mitsubishi 5kw pump, 200l water tank, 8 radiators. Fully fitted and including £199 for a 7year warranty.

£10, 649.

What do others think?

Do your existing boiler and radiators need replacing?

Do you (Jocks) get the same government incentives (or similar) as England?

If that's yes and yes, it looks like a no-brainer.

I have 30 odd year old storage heaters and an immersion water heater tank. Everything works, but everything is a bit tired, as you'd expect. In Scotland, theres a £7500 grant available.

I've previously had a quote for replacement HHR storage heaters @ c. £1800 fitted and separately, a quote for a replacement water tank at £1750 fitted. So it looks like it will pay for itself from day 1.

The original pre visit quote was£12,500.

They've also quoted me for 8 rads. Even the surveyor told me 5 or 6 would do the job (depending on whether I went for 1 big rad in the living room or 2 smaller ones)

[scotview]

I have 30 odd year old storage heaters and an immersion water heater tank. Everything works, but everything is a bit tired, as you'd expect. In Scotland, theres a £7500 grant available.

I've previously had a quote for replacement HHR storage heaters @ c. £1800 fitted and separately, a quote for a replacement water tank at £1750 fitted. So it looks like it will pay for itself from day 1.

A couple of questions.

1 Do you have some sort of off-peak rate ?
2 Does the £7500 grant cover storage heaters ? I thought it was for Heat-pump/Solar only.
3 Would you only get a grant for £1800 + £1750 or full £ 7500 ?
4 Do you think your new storage heaters/upgraded tank would give you significantly higher leccy bills than a heat-pump ?

[Tedx]

1. Yes, I'm on E7
2.Yes, it's for a Mitsubishi 5kw heat pump, 8 rads, 200l water tank. I believe there may be a smaller (2.5k) grant available for HHR storage heaters but only if, in the opinion of a registered installer, a heat pump is not feasible.

3. The £7500 is for the installation included as above. The other prices I mention were for separate individual installations that are taken care of by the air to water heat pump heating system. I.e. I've netted the cost off the heat pump

4. Well I have projections from HE Scotland and Scottish power showing potential savings of about £500 per annum, depending on the electricity price (using a heat pump v my current set up)

[servodude]

1. Yes, I'm on E7
2.Yes, it's for a Mitsubishi 5kw heat pump, 8 rads, 200l water tank. I believe there may be a smaller (2.5k) grant available for HHR storage heaters but only if, in the opinion of a registered installer, a heat pump is not feasible.

3. The £7500 is for the installation included as above. The other prices I mention were for separate individual installations that are taken care of by the air to water heat pump heating system. I.e. I've netted the cost off the heat pump

4. Well I have projections from HE Scotland and Scottish power showing potential savings of about £500 per annum, depending on the electricity price (using a heat pump v my current set up)

Do they have the equivalent of a "show home" so you can actually experience what it would be approximately like?

[rabbit]

How did your meeting with the Home Energy Scotland guy go ?

Yeah, it was good. The guy seemed to know what he was talking about and we were pretty much on the same page. After the initial chat, he went around the house (including the loft), taking notes and photos etc we then had another chat where we discussed what was available. The consultation was free and he'll be providing me with a full report and be on hand shouldci take his recommendations forward.

The consultation did save me having to get an initial EPC, although I still have to get one post work completion.

He reckoned I'd get the report in the next few days.

I presume the Home Energy Scotland process is independent of any installer?

I've just had something similar done under a local pilot scheme being run through our parish council in Cornwall, though it was part of a bigger exercise that included a whole house energy efficiency plan and retrofit survey looking at a number of different angles, not just heating. I had to contribute £150 towards it, although it was very thorough and has involved separate visits from three consultants!. I've learnt a lot about building heat loss, flow temperatures, heating pipe diameters and all sorts of other stuff!

The spec sounds sensible. I've been recommended a 5kw air source heat pump and 200l tank with six radiators for a small, two bedroom house, so yours sounds sensible assuming you're not in a mansion!

Your quote sounds very reasonable indeed. There's no VAT on heat pump installations and ancillaries, provided it's all done as a single contract, which helps to keep the price down too. I would recommend getting a second and even third quote if you haven't done so already, principally to see if you are comfortable that the potential installers know their stuff. There are some excellent heat pump installers out there and some very shoddy ones who just don't understand the physics and technology! A few searching questions, based on your reading of the Home Energy Scotland report, might help to give you some assurance of the installers' competence.

[Tedx]

1. Yes, I'm on E7
2.Yes, it's for a Mitsubishi 5kw heat pump, 8 rads, 200l water tank. I believe there may be a smaller (2.5k) grant available for HHR storage heaters but only if, in the opinion of a registered installer, a heat pump is not feasible.

3. The £7500 is for the installation included as above. The other prices I mention were for separate individual installations that are taken care of by the air to water heat pump heating system. I.e. I've netted the cost off the heat pump

4. Well I have projections from HE Scotland and Scottish power showing potential savings of about £500 per annum, depending on the electricity price (using a heat pump v my current set up)

Do they have the equivalent of a "show home" so you can actually experience what it would be approximately like?

Not that I know of, unfortunately.

[Tedx]

Yeah, it was good. The guy seemed to know what he was talking about and we were pretty much on the same page. After the initial chat, he went around the house (including the loft), taking notes and photos etc we then had another chat where we discussed what was available. The consultation was free and he'll be providing me with a full report and be on hand shouldci take his recommendations forward.

The consultation did save me having to get an initial EPC, although I still have to get one post work completion.

He reckoned I'd get the report in the next few days.

I presume the Home Energy Scotland process is independent of any installer?

I've just had something similar done under a local pilot scheme being run through our parish council in Cornwall, though it was part of a bigger exercise that included a whole house energy efficiency plan and retrofit survey looking at a number of different angles, not just heating. I had to contribute £150 towards it, although it was very thorough and has involved separate visits from three consultants!. I've learnt a lot about building heat loss, flow temperatures, heating pipe diameters and all sorts of other stuff!

The spec sounds sensible. I've been recommended a 5kw air source heat pump and 200l tank with six radiators for a small, two bedroom house, so yours sounds sensible assuming you're not in a mansion!

Your quote sounds very reasonable indeed. There's no VAT on heat pump installations and ancillaries, provided it's all done as a single contract, which helps to keep the price down too. I would recommend getting a second and even third quote if you haven't done so already, principally to see if you are comfortable that the potential installers know their stuff. There are some excellent heat pump installers out there and some very shoddy ones who just don't understand the physics and technology! A few searching questions, based on your reading of the Home Energy Scotland report, might help to give you some assurance of the installers' competence.

Yes, HE Scotland is a Scot Gov funded independent (of retailer) organisation. I'm able to contact him via email/telephone at any time for ongoing advice or information.

Thanks for your other info btw

[DrFfybes]

Hi Ted,

I can't comment on the price or grant shceme, but a few observations.

Firstly, is 5kW output enough? ISTR you have very low energy use anyway and if you can manage on E7 then daytime heatloss will be low, so probably fine, but given the £600 or so difference in cost between a 5kW and 6kW unit and your location it might be better to err on the safe side.

What flow temp does the heat pump run at - some of the newer ones run much hotter which means smaller rads and a more responsive system. Admittedly the rads will probably be smaller than your storage heaters anyway

How physically big is the water tank? How old is your old one and what is the capacty? It makes sense to replace the tank with everything else, but modern ones have a lot more insulation built in so make sure it actually fits in the space you think it will. We encountered this issue a few years ago replacing a heating system when the tank specified didn't fit.

Can the new tank be "unvented"? It should be possible to get one to run at the same pressure as the cold water and remove the need for loft header tanks, which means a quite powerful mixer shower is possible instead of an electric one.

Paul

[funduffer]

A few points:

1. If you are considering a heat pump you need a proper heat loss survey of your house to accurately determine the size needed. You can have a go at this yourself with the heatpunk tool: https://heatpunk.co.uk/home. In this you can adjust radiator sizes/types and flow temperature to see what difference it makes. But you probably should get one done by an expert.

2. On most heat pumps you can adjust the flow temperature - the higher the temperature the lower the efficiency (COP). Some heat pumps can operate at the flow temperature of a gas boiler, but with low COP. So there is a trade-off between spending money to increase radiator size and improve insulation versus heat pump efficiency (and hence electricity usage). The optimum will depend on your particular property and what exists in it at the start.

3. I have had a heat pump quote for a 3 bed bungalow from Octopus, including hot water tank and some new radiators of £6230, net of the £7500 grant available in England.

[Tedx]

Hi Ted,

I can't comment on the price or grant shceme, but a few observations.

Firstly, is 5kW output enough? ISTR you have very low energy use anyway and if you can manage on E7 then daytime heatloss will be low, so probably fine, but given the £600 or so difference in cost between a 5kW and 6kW unit and your location it might be better to err on the safe side.

What flow temp does the heat pump run at - some of the newer ones run much hotter which means smaller rads and a more responsive system. Admittedly the rads will probably be smaller than your storage heaters anyway

How physically big is the water tank? How old is your old one and what is the capacty? It makes sense to replace the tank with everything else, but modern ones have a lot more insulation built in so make sure it actually fits in the space you think it will. We encountered this issue a few years ago replacing a heating system when the tank specified didn't fit.

Can the new tank be "unvented"? It should be possible to get one to run at the same pressure as the cold water and remove the need for loft header tanks, which means a quite powerful mixer shower is possible instead of an electric one.

Paul

Hi Paul

Yes my energy use is lower than average

1. Its this heatpump they are recommending

https://library.mitsubishielectric.co.u ... t#page-1-2

2. The water tank is a 'McDonald Cylinder 200 LTR'. My current one is 120l, but really thats only filling up a few bowls of water every day (I had the bath taken out years ago). I had a quote late last year for replacing the water tank with a smaller one (at 35 years old, I was told the tank is getting on a bit any way). The surveyor has already said it wont fit in the current space (too tall), so it would have to go into the cupboard next door. They will remove the only tank, so we gain most of the space back. Im not sure about unvented/vented. I'm quite happy with my current bathroom setup as it was recently refurbished (12.8kw mira shower/bath removed etc).

Thanks