Energy costs. Oh dear.......

[BullDog]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman. Running a desktop PC will cost £1.25 a day at the new electricity rate 52p per kilowatt hour, while boiling a kettle will cost 10p.

Until a few weeks ago I was paying 3p for gas and 14p for electricity. That's my gas increased by 5x and my electricity increased by nearly 4x. And another price cap increase to come in January 2023.

What on earth is going to happen over the winter if it's a really cold one? I can see a lot of people simply won't be able to pay.

[Mike4]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman. Running a desktop PC will cost £1.25 a day at the new electricity rate 52p per kilowatt hour, while boiling a kettle will cost 10p.

Until a few weeks ago I was paying 3p for gas and 14p for electricity. That's my gas increased by 5x and my electricity increased by nearly 4x. And another price cap increase to come in January 2023.

What on earth is going to happen over the winter if it's a really cold one? I can see a lot of people simply won't be able to pay.

Well for a start a change of smug, complacent, absent government I'd suggest....

[staffordian]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman. Running a desktop PC will cost £1.25 a day at the new electricity rate 52p per kilowatt hour, while boiling a kettle will cost 10p.

Until a few weeks ago I was paying 3p for gas and 14p for electricity. That's my gas increased by 5x and my electricity increased by nearly 4x. And another price cap increase to come in January 2023.

What on earth is going to happen over the winter if it's a really cold one? I can see a lot of people simply won't be able to pay.

I suspect some of these figures are wrong. Eg that £3.60 or £4.80 per hour assumes the boiler is working full blast all the time. That never happens; it will normally modulate (burn less gas) as things heat up, and switch off for a while when the house is warm. Agree some of the electrical appliance usage is quite sobering...

[BullDog]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman. Running a desktop PC will cost £1.25 a day at the new electricity rate 52p per kilowatt hour, while boiling a kettle will cost 10p.

Until a few weeks ago I was paying 3p for gas and 14p for electricity. That's my gas increased by 5x and my electricity increased by nearly 4x. And another price cap increase to come in January 2023.

What on earth is going to happen over the winter if it's a really cold one? I can see a lot of people simply won't be able to pay.

I suspect some of these figures are wrong. Eg that £3.60 or £4.80 per hour assumes the boiler is working full blast all the time. That never happens; it will normally modulate (burn less gas) as things heat up, and switch off for a while when the house is warm. Agree some of the electrical appliance usage is quite sobering...

Many city centre apartments are only electric. My son has a city centre apartment where his water heating, space heating and cooking are all electric. His living room has a 3kw and a 1kw electric heater and they are both required in colder winter weather to keep the living room warm. So..... £2 an hour just to heat the living room with 4kw of heat? That's incredible.

[xeny]

Many city centre apartments are only electric. My son has a city centre apartment where his water heating, space heating and cooking are all electric. His living room has a 3kw and a 1kw electric heater and they are both required in colder winter weather to keep the living room warm. So..... £2 an hour just to heat the living room with 4kw of heat? That's incredible.

Current projections from Auxilione (who seem pessimistic, but not ludicrously so) are 80p/KWh for the Jan cap, and £1.10 for the April one, although heating demand has hopefully fallen by then. https://us-noi.v-cdn.net/6031891/upload ... 4w5yl6.png

[scotview]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one. That never happens; it will normally modulate (burn less gas) as things heat up.

That's why we put in a 15 kW boiler. BG recommended 25 kW but I signed a waiver. I should have put in a 10 kW unit , that would have an even better turn down efficiency.

Most boilers in the UK are grossly oversized. I recon that a small boiler and zone heating would be just as good if not better than a heat pump, particularly in the North.

[BullDog]

Many city centre apartments are only electric. My son has a city centre apartment where his water heating, space heating and cooking are all electric. His living room has a 3kw and a 1kw electric heater and they are both required in colder winter weather to keep the living room warm. So..... £2 an hour just to heat the living room with 4kw of heat? That's incredible.

Current projections from Auxilione (who seem pessimistic, but not ludicrously so) are 80p/KWh for the Jan cap, and £1.10 for the April one, although heating demand has hopefully fallen by then. https://us-noi.v-cdn.net/6031891/upload ... 4w5yl6.png

12 or 18 months ago that would have been thought impossible. Now it looks probable.

[scotview]

12 or 18 months ago that would have been thought impossible. Now it looks probable.

Can the government just keep printing/borrowing to provide "support"

[Mike4]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one. That never happens; it will normally modulate (burn less gas) as things heat up.

That's why we put in a 15 kW boiler. BG recommended 25 kW but I signed a waiver. I should have put in a 10 kW unit , that would have an even better turn down efficiency.

Most boilers in the UK are grossly oversized. I recon that a small boiler and zone heating would be just as good if not better than a heat pump, particularly in the North.

Totally agree. It troubles me the way heat pumps are sold as 'needing' the house insulation to be 'upgraded' at the same time. This is simply so a smaller and cheaper (although still horrendously expensive) heat pump can be installed.

If you install just the recommended insulation upgrade, you would probably find a gas boiler about one third of the size currently installed would heat the house perfectly well.

[staffordian]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one. That never happens; it will normally modulate (burn less gas) as things heat up.

That's why we put in a 15 kW boiler. BG recommended 25 kW but I signed a waiver. I should have put in a 10 kW unit , that would have an even better turn down efficiency.

Most boilers in the UK are grossly oversized. I recon that a small boiler and zone heating would be just as good if not better than a heat pump, particularly in the North.

Totally agree. It troubles me the way heat pumps are sold as 'needing' the house insulation to be 'upgraded' at the same time. This is simply so a smaller and cheaper (although still horrendously expensive) heat pump can be installed.

If you install just the recommended insulation upgrade, you would probably find a gas boiler about one third of the size currently installed would heat the house perfectly well.

Is the problem, at least where combi boilers are concerned, that you often need the higher capacity to heat the water quickly enough? So you compromise energy efficiency on the heating side to ensure the DHW works well enough.

[scrumpyjack]

I think my oil boiler costs about 9p per kwh at the current price of heating oil. Can't see myself changing to a heat pump any time soon!

[xeny]

I think my oil boiler costs about 9p per kwh at the current price of heating oil. Can't see myself changing to a heat pump any time soon!

Issue will be industrial gas consumers migrating to oil for security of supply driving up the cost. Right now oil is far cheaper than gas. I can't see that lasting.

[scotview]

Is the problem, at least where combi boilers are concerned, that you often need the higher capacity to heat the water quickly enough? So you compromise energy efficiency on the heating side to ensure the DHW works well enough.

Yes, that's an issue now with combi's. I think combi owners will get a surprise when that heating "compromise" gets translated into a big number on their fuel bill.

Maybe a small regular boiler and well insulated cylinder might be the way to go.

[scrumpyjack]

I think my oil boiler costs about 9p per kwh at the current price of heating oil. Can't see myself changing to a heat pump any time soon!

Issue will be industrial gas consumers migrating to oil for security of supply driving up the cost. Right now oil is far cheaper than gas. I can't see that lasting.

I think it will be a lot cheaper than gas for a long time because there are well established methods of delivering oil internationally and nationally and volumes can easily be ramped up, whereas that is not the case with gas. The extra supplies to replace Russian gas are largely having to be imported as LNG in Europe and there is a huge shortage of the production and means of distribution of LNG. That is what is causing the massive spike in gas prices in the UK and Europe and the consequent increase in electricity costs as gas is the main fuel used to generate electricity. If anything IMO the oil price is likely to fall, and I read the other day that the investment banks expect oil to average about 80 dollars a barrel in 2023.

[Mike4]

I think my oil boiler costs about 9p per kwh at the current price of heating oil. Can't see myself changing to a heat pump any time soon!

Issue will be industrial gas consumers migrating to oil for security of supply driving up the cost. Right now oil is far cheaper than gas. I can't see that lasting.

Funnily enough I've just been doing some sums in that respect. Here are my calculations of my own personal costs of the various fuels I use, standing charges ignored and converted to the same units (kWh) for easy comparison:

7.5p natural gas
7.6p kerosene
8p solid fuel ('manufactured' coal)
14.5p LPG (propane in 47kg bottles)
25p LPG (propane in 13kg bottles)
35p electricity

(Post edited to add a line, and to rank them in price order.)

[AF62]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman. Running a desktop PC will cost £1.25 a day at the new electricity rate 52p per kilowatt hour, while boiling a kettle will cost 10p.

This is the original from New Statesman - https://www.newstatesman.com/business/w ... -from-home (limited free articles).

Are journalists really that stupid that they have no concept of thermostats and that gas boilers don’t run full blast from the moment they are turned on until they are turned off?

[XFool]

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman.

This is the original from New Statesman - https://www.newstatesman.com/business/w ... -from-home (limited free articles).

Are journalists really that stupid that they have no concept of thermostats and that gas boilers don’t run full blast from the moment they are turned on until they are turned off?

Correct me if I am wrong but, at 15p per kWh, a 24 kilowatt boiler will indeed cost 24 x 15p = £3.60 per hour to run.

How much it costs to run per day, per month, per season is another matter and depends on many things.

[absolutezero]

Quoted from the Telegraph today regarding the energy price cap in October. Article is pay walled -

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman. Running a desktop PC will cost £1.25 a day at the new electricity rate 52p per kilowatt hour, while boiling a kettle will cost 10p.

Until a few weeks ago I was paying 3p for gas and 14p for electricity. That's my gas increased by 5x and my electricity increased by nearly 4x. And another price cap increase to come in January 2023.

What on earth is going to happen over the winter if it's a really cold one? I can see a lot of people simply won't be able to pay.

Well for a start a change of smug, complacent, absent government I'd suggest....

To a different smug, complacent, absent government.
The actors may change but nothing else will.

[absolutezero]

12 or 18 months ago that would have been thought impossible. Now it looks probable.

Can the government just keep printing/borrowing to provide "support"

Not without Mr Bond calling and increasing his rates. And then its game over.

[AF62]

The price cap increases gas tariffs to 15p an hour, meaning it will cost £3.60 an hour to run a small 24 kilowatt boiler or £4.80 for a 32kW one, according to calculations by the New Statesman.

This is the original from New Statesman - https://www.newstatesman.com/business/w ... -from-home (limited free articles).

Are journalists really that stupid that they have no concept of thermostats and that gas boilers don’t run full blast from the moment they are turned on until they are turned off?

Correct me if I am wrong but, at 15p per kWh, a 24 kilowatt boiler will indeed cost 24 x 15p = £3.60 per hour to run.

Well it does whilst it is running full blast, but every gas boiler I have ever used has turned itself off / down once the house came up to temperature.

How much it costs to run per day, per month, per season is another matter and depends on many things.

But the journalist hasn’t done that. They have simply multiplied the £3.60 for the boiler running full blast by an eight hour working day to get the £30 a day headline cost.

Have you ever known a boiler run non-stop for eight hours without stopping?

So as I said before, a stupid journalist who doesn’t know how thermostats work - or alternatively a cynical journalist going for a ‘click bait’ article knowing it is rubbish but that other lazy/stupid journalists will just recycle it as the Telegraph did.