solar panels v heatpump

[staffordian]

Ok, so I'm now leaning towards binning the solar panel idea AND the heat pump and concentrating on upgrading the storage heaters to modern HHR models. Dimplex, Elnur and Electrorad do models which claim to be around 27% more efficient than older storage heaters

You've mentioned this before but I am driven to call this out as techno-babble. All storage heaters are 100% efficient as they convert ALL the leccy they burn into heat, inside your house. Even the very old ones.

Also this HHR thing. The high density ceramic bricks inside conventional storage heaters are hard to beat for energy density without stepping up to steel or cast iron, which is about 20 times the price for double the heat capacity performance. What IS this new HHR material they are using? I bet it is just the same ol' ceramic bricks. Besides, one doesn't want "high heat retention" in a storage heater. One needs the bricks to give up their heat quickly and easily on demand. It's the demand mechanism that needs controlling.

Ah that's better. Rant over.

As I see it, the key way that they can seem more efficient is by improving the insulation, such that they leak less heat when they are off, or closed, or whatever the term is for when heat is not needed. I imagine most will leak to some extent, so need a higher input the night before to ensure that they have enough to give out when needed.

[Mike4]

Ok, so I'm now leaning towards binning the solar panel idea AND the heat pump and concentrating on upgrading the storage heaters to modern HHR models. Dimplex, Elnur and Electrorad do models which claim to be around 27% more efficient than older storage heaters

You've mentioned this before but I am driven to call this out as techno-babble. All storage heaters are 100% efficient as they convert ALL the leccy they burn into heat, inside your house. Even the very old ones.

Also this HHR thing. The high density ceramic bricks inside conventional storage heaters are hard to beat for energy density without stepping up to steel or cast iron, which is about 20 times the price for double the heat capacity performance. What IS this new HHR material they are using? I bet it is just the same ol' ceramic bricks. Besides, one doesn't want "high heat retention" in a storage heater. One needs the bricks to give up their heat quickly and easily on demand. It's the demand mechanism that needs controlling.

Ah that's better. Rant over.

As I see it, the key way that they can seem more efficient is by improving the insulation, such that they leak less heat when they are off, or closed, or whatever the term is for when heat is not needed. I imagine most will leak some, so need a higher input the night before to ensure that they have enough to give out when needed.

Efficiency = energy out/energy in.

x 100 for a result in percentage.

And they are quoting efficiency improvement in actual percentage terms, whixh looks to me like an attempt to mislead customers into expecting large energy efficiency improvements.

[taken2often]

I have gone for Rointe Aluminium Oil Filled, reasonably quick to heat and retain heat for some time. The built in timer is dire to set so it would be easier to use a socket timer. I just set by temp. Keep it at base 12 or 15c until needed.

The problem with storage heaters is that your house needs to be draught proof or there is not much heat left by evening when you get home. I knew of a development that had storage heater and every room had a 6" vent in a window. They had massive bills and that was 25 years ago when energy was cheap. Changed glass and draught proofed the windows, problem solved.
Bob

[Howard]

Mine, despite their age, are ok but then, as I've previously mentioned, my house is well insulated so holds its heat quite well.

As with most storage heaters, the dodgiest time is Autumn or Spring and I think a HHR would definitely be better then.

I am a fan of ASHPs as you will see from my posts on other threads. Our aircon is brilliant at heating two rooms from cold in minutes for little cost. However, we run it in parallel with gas central heating, which we use if we have family staying or want to heat the whole house. The engineers who installed it suggested it wouldn’t need servicing for around five years assuming I cleaned the filters occasionally - a very easy routine.

Brilliant as an ASHP is, it is a bit like a massive, very quiet, fan heater and the experience of using it is different from the more constant heat from radiators, or storage heaters. It switches on and off to keep the room(s) at a set temperature. If you and Mrs S are used to storage heaters this may take some getting used to.

Upgraded storage heaters are probably going to be more controllable and more economical than your current models and, as you suggest, less costly than two ASHPs. It is likely that in the foreseeable future, off-peak electricity will be encouraged even more, continuing to be much lower cost than using electricity during the day, so another plus for storage heaters. Of course, the optimum might be to upgrade storage heaters and have one ASHP which would give you the best of both worlds including cooling in the summer - but this would be significantly more expensive to install.

So even as a happy user of an ASHP, given your situation, I’d go for upgraded storage heaters.

Hope this is helpful. Good luck with the decision.

regards

Howard

[scotview]

Mine, despite their age, are ok but then, as I've previously mentioned, my house is well insulated so holds its heat quite well.

I am a fan of ASHPs as you will see from my posts on other threads.

Howard

The latest fleet of MG BEV's (cheapest on the market) have V2L, "vehicle to load" and it looks like it actually works.
The car battery has something like 65kWh storage and output to an AC socket is about 3kW.

It can be charged up at night time tariff. I have been looking at the MG cars from a point of view of supplementing home storage batteries and giving a huge boost to power cut capability. (our ID3 cannot do this),

Reading this thread it has struck me that if an MG BEV had cheap battery capacity left in the evening it could be used to power electric heaters. Or more interestingly powering a heat pump with a COP of X3 would give 9kW of heat output. Not sure what the earthing requirements would be.

Worth thinking about?

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Relative Costs of Space Heating

1. Air source heat pump with underfloor heating system = 100%
2. Air source heat pump with radiators = 128%
3. Night storage heaters on E7 = 160%
4. Electric radiators with immersion water heating = 233%

If we assume that E7 heating is 60% more expensive than air source heating as the above then you "may" be able to consider ASHP as an alternative. Air source heat pumps can achieve an efficiency of upwards of 600%. The best gas boilers don't come close to that. However, as you have mentioned gas is not an option for you. But more importantly [if the above figures are correct] ASHP will save you 60% on your annual heating bill.

I've no idea what your annual heating costs are. If they were £150/month or £1,800 per year you would save £700 per annum switching to ASHP.

I think what I'm suggesting is are you sure you're analysis is correct?

Noting you can leave your hot water and washing machine on E7.

AiY(D)

[funduffer]

I am a fan of ASHPs as you will see from my posts on other threads. Our aircon is brilliant at heating two rooms from cold in minutes for little cost. However, we run it in parallel with gas central heating, which we use if we have family staying or want to heat the whole house. The engineers who installed it suggested it wouldn’t need servicing for around five years assuming I cleaned the filters occasionally - a very easy routine.

Brilliant as an ASHP is, it is a bit like a massive, very quiet, fan heater and the experience of using it is different from the more constant heat from radiators, or storage heaters. It switches on and off to keep the room(s) at a set temperature. If you and Mrs S are used to storage heaters this may take some getting used to.

Upgraded storage heaters are probably going to be more controllable and more economical than your current models and, as you suggest, less costly than two ASHPs. It is likely that in the foreseeable future, off-peak electricity will be encouraged even more, continuing to be much lower cost than using electricity during the day, so another plus for storage heaters. Of course, the optimum might be to upgrade storage heaters and have one ASHP which would give you the best of both worlds including cooling in the summer - but this would be significantly more expensive to install.

So even as a happy user of an ASHP, given your situation, I’d go for upgraded storage heaters.

Hope this is helpful. Good luck with the decision.

regards

Howard

Hi Howard - I am going down your preferred route currently - 2 air-con units to supplement the gas central heating. The installer has convinced me to have 2 separate ASHP's rather than one split unit running the 2 air con units. The costs are awash when you take into account the 2x12m of pipework involved with the latter. (Cost quote for the 2 systems is ~£3.5k)

One thing I am questioning is whether I need planning permission for the 2x ASHP's solution. Do you know anything about this?

The Government planning portal states:

Only the first installation of an air source heat pump would be permitted development, and only if there is no existing wind turbine on a building or within the curtilage of that property. Additional wind turbines or air source heat pumps at the same property requires an application for planning permission.

This seems a bit ambiguous to me, so I have raised a query with my local authority.

FD

[Howard]

I am a fan of ASHPs as you will see from my posts on other threads. Our aircon is brilliant at heating two rooms from cold in minutes for little cost. However, we run it in parallel with gas central heating, which we use if we have family staying or want to heat the whole house. The engineers who installed it suggested it wouldn’t need servicing for around five years assuming I cleaned the filters occasionally - a very easy routine.

Brilliant as an ASHP is, it is a bit like a massive, very quiet, fan heater and the experience of using it is different from the more constant heat from radiators, or storage heaters. It switches on and off to keep the room(s) at a set temperature. If you and Mrs S are used to storage heaters this may take some getting used to.

Upgraded storage heaters are probably going to be more controllable and more economical than your current models and, as you suggest, less costly than two ASHPs. It is likely that in the foreseeable future, off-peak electricity will be encouraged even more, continuing to be much lower cost than using electricity during the day, so another plus for storage heaters. Of course, the optimum might be to upgrade storage heaters and have one ASHP which would give you the best of both worlds including cooling in the summer - but this would be significantly more expensive to install.

So even as a happy user of an ASHP, given your situation, I’d go for upgraded storage heaters.

Hope this is helpful. Good luck with the decision.

regards

Howard

Hi Howard - I am going down your preferred route currently - 2 air-con units to supplement the gas central heating. The installer has convinced me to have 2 separate ASHP's rather than one split unit running the 2 air con units. The costs are awash when you take into account the 2x12m of pipework involved with the latter. (Cost quote for the 2 systems is ~£3.5k)

One thing I am questioning is whether I need planning permission for the 2x ASHP's solution. Do you know anything about this?

The Government planning portal states:

Only the first installation of an air source heat pump would be permitted development, and only if there is no existing wind turbine on a building or within the curtilage of that property. Additional wind turbines or air source heat pumps at the same property requires an application for planning permission.

This seems a bit ambiguous to me, so I have raised a query with my local authority.

FD

The straightforward answer to your question is - I don't know about any planning restrictions.

However, I can see the logic of two separate ASHPs to avoid very long insulated pipe runs. Our unit is very quiet externally so, unless it was right next to a neighbour's window it's inaudible in reality. For that reason, I can't see anyone objecting or even knowing that you have two units unless they are very visible mounted high up.

A couple of friends and neighbours thinking about an installation asked to see my system which sits at the edge of the patio. Being a keen gardener and fussy about the look of the fan, I have disguised the external unit in a frame next to the bbq so it acts as a slatted side table (but doesn't restrict the airflow) For fun I've asked them to find the external unit while it is running. It takes them a while to discover it because it's so quiet, although the airflow is obvious once you stand near it.

A friend has a big ASHP which runs radiators. Two of those would be very large additions to a house and might require permission?

So practical answer is I can't see a planning problem with two separate small aircon units. Your supplier would probably know the answer?

regards

Howard

[funduffer]

I am a fan of ASHPs as you will see from my posts on other threads. Our aircon is brilliant at heating two rooms from cold in minutes for little cost. However, we run it in parallel with gas central heating, which we use if we have family staying or want to heat the whole house. The engineers who installed it suggested it wouldn’t need servicing for around five years assuming I cleaned the filters occasionally - a very easy routine.

Brilliant as an ASHP is, it is a bit like a massive, very quiet, fan heater and the experience of using it is different from the more constant heat from radiators, or storage heaters. It switches on and off to keep the room(s) at a set temperature. If you and Mrs S are used to storage heaters this may take some getting used to.

Upgraded storage heaters are probably going to be more controllable and more economical than your current models and, as you suggest, less costly than two ASHPs. It is likely that in the foreseeable future, off-peak electricity will be encouraged even more, continuing to be much lower cost than using electricity during the day, so another plus for storage heaters. Of course, the optimum might be to upgrade storage heaters and have one ASHP which would give you the best of both worlds including cooling in the summer - but this would be significantly more expensive to install.

So even as a happy user of an ASHP, given your situation, I’d go for upgraded storage heaters.

Hope this is helpful. Good luck with the decision.

regards

Howard

Hi Howard - I am going down your preferred route currently - 2 air-con units to supplement the gas central heating. The installer has convinced me to have 2 separate ASHP's rather than one split unit running the 2 air con units. The costs are awash when you take into account the 2x12m of pipework involved with the latter. (Cost quote for the 2 systems is ~£3.5k)

One thing I am questioning is whether I need planning permission for the 2x ASHP's solution. Do you know anything about this?

The Government planning portal states:

Only the first installation of an air source heat pump would be permitted development, and only if there is no existing wind turbine on a building or within the curtilage of that property. Additional wind turbines or air source heat pumps at the same property requires an application for planning permission.

This seems a bit ambiguous to me, so I have raised a query with my local authority.

FD

The straightforward answer to your question is - I don't know about any planning restrictions.

However, I can see the logic of two separate ASHPs to avoid very long insulated pipe runs. Our unit is very quiet externally so, unless it was right next to a neighbour's window it's inaudible in reality. For that reason, I can't see anyone objecting or even knowing that you have two units unless they are very visible mounted high up.

A couple of friends and neighbours thinking about an installation asked to see my system which sits at the edge of the patio. Being a keen gardener and fussy about the look of the fan, I have disguised the external unit in a frame next to the bbq so it acts as a slatted side table (but doesn't restrict the airflow) For fun I've asked them to find the external unit while it is running. It takes them a while to discover it because it's so quiet, although the airflow is obvious once you stand near it.

A friend has a big ASHP which runs radiators. Two of those would be very large additions to a house and might require permission?

So practical answer is I can't see a planning problem with two separate small aircon units. Your supplier would probably know the answer?

regards

Howard

Update: I have now got the verdict from my local council planning department:

You do need planning permission if you plan to fit more than one heat pump at your property (regardless of size).

I find this annoying, as I was only planning to fit 2 small units at the sides of the house.

Anyway, I have decided to proceed with just one unit for now

FD