Landline only telephone costs

[Laughton]

No mention by them of any new installation fee.

I'm now just wondering if this has anything to do with the switchover to digital lines which I think comes up in 2025?? Maybe they're not installing any lines going forward that aren't digital? Mind you, that hardly seems practical - she lives at least two miles from the nearest green box and I can't imagine they're going to run a digital line all that way just for one new customer.

I can't apply for a line at that address because (a) she has to provide her NI number to get the £10 per month Home Essential package and (b) they require bank details in order to set up direct debit for monthly payments. Then there are all the "security" questions they want set up - she's already mightily confused and worried, I think all that would be too much for her to cope with.

[genou]

Mind you, that hardly seems practical - she lives at least two miles from the nearest green box and I can't imagine they're going to run a digital line all that way just for one new customer.

Somebody is going to have to - the technology behind her, and her neighbours, current connections, is going away and they will all need replaced connections. I commend your efforts here. Have you looked for a BT/Openreach unit that deal with vulnerable customers, who may be more understanding ?

[didds]

Somebody is going to have to - the technology behind her, and her neighbours, current connections, is going away and they will all need replaced connections.

apologies for the probably derail, but thats an awful lot oif properties nationwide to be "sorted" in ... what... two years?

We are half a mile of copper overhead from the nearest green box - we are now "digital" but all that meant was plugging our existing landline ophone into the back of our existing BB router. ISTR something about those without BB would get a gizmo-widget that would equate to the same thing (or summat).

If we are to get an actual digital connection by 2025 - when there are no plans to get fibre here in that time - somebody somewhere is going to have to organise a lot of stuff nationally because we are not alone.

[XFool]

Mind you, that hardly seems practical - she lives at least two miles from the nearest green box and I can't imagine they're going to run a digital line all that way just for one new customer.

Somebody is going to have to - the technology behind her, and her neighbours, current connections, is going away and they will all need replaced connections.

Not urgently. Existing landline only customers - with BT at least - will be provided with a box between their (suitable) phone and the phone socket. Non BT customers? That's another matter, they may not even provide phone services after the switch off (e.g. Plusnet).

I commend your efforts here. Have you looked for a BT/Openreach unit that deal with vulnerable customers, who may be more understanding ?

Good idea. (I imagine...)

[XFool]

We are half a mile of copper overhead from the nearest green box - we are now "digital" but all that meant was plugging our existing landline ophone into the back of our existing BB router.

If we are to get an actual digital connection by 2025 - when there are no plans to get fibre here in that time - somebody somewhere is going to have to organise a lot of stuff nationally because we are not alone.

Then you already are fully "digital", just not on optical fibre.

[didds]

Then you already are fully "digital", just not on optical fibre.

fine - so why cannot the OP's neighbour similarly be made "fully digital" ? - ISTR some gizmo-dongle that would be used to become digital if BB wasnt in place? (rhetorical question )

It all comes down to this really "We'd both feel a bit better if BT could just explain why they need to have an engineer call to install a new line"

All because "Computer says no".

Sympathies all round

[XFool]

Then you already are fully "digital", just not on optical fibre.

fine - so why cannot the OP's neighbour similarly be made "fully digital" ? - ISTR some gizmo-dongle that would be used to become digital if BB wasnt in place? (rhetorical question )

Yes. She will, when the analogue system is switched off in a couple of years. Sticking with BT may be the best option, here.

It all comes down to this really "We'd both feel a bit better if BT could just explain why they need to have an engineer call to install a new line"

No idea there.

[didds]

Yes. She will, when the analogue system is switched off in a couple of years. Sticking with BT may be the best option, here.

firstly - we are in violent agreement here

But given that we (in our house) have already been made digital (on an analogue line etc etc) , why would she have to wait for when the analogue system is turned off? Why wouldn't she be made thus asap?

rhetorical questions probably!

[XFool]

Yes. She will, when the analogue system is switched off in a couple of years. Sticking with BT may be the best option, here.

firstly - we are in violent agreement here

Golly!

But given that we (in our house) have already been made digital (on an analogue line etc etc) , why would she have to wait for when the analogue system is turned off? Why wouldn't she be made thus asap?

Where's the need? When the time comes BT will no doubt(?) be in contact with her - then she may ask her neighbour for help once more.

[Laughton]

then she may ask her neighbour for help once more.

Aaaaaghhh! (only joking - I'm actually happy to help)

[AF62]

You can't beat the system.

This has the feel of 'computer says no' syndrome.

The process for switching landline provider is set out here - https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecom ... g-landline and as iTalk use Openreach equipment then it should follow the 'Gaining provider led process' and not the 'Cease and re-provide process' which is for customers moving between non-Openreach systems or from a non-Openreach system to Openreach. And the whole issue of MACs (Migration Authorisation Code) is odd as that should only apply to moving an internet service not a simple landline.

I would check what the Openreach system is 'seeing' by using the two parts of the BT Wholesale checker and whether they agree.

Put the phone number in here and see what it says - https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL and the address in here and see what it says - https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesal ... ddressHome (as an aside, if that says the exchange is in a 'fibre priority programme' then there is a 'stop sell' on analogue lines and you can't order a new analogue line, OR more relevant here, do a transfer or migration).

[Laughton]

Thanks AF62. I've enterede details at both those sites and they both seem to say the same although I'm not sure which bits are important.

The text below the tables both say:

The address and the number checker both confirm the line is served by the same cabinet
FTTP is not available
The exchange is not in a current fibre priority programme
SOADSL is restricted at the exchange

Mark

[AF62]

Thanks AF62. I've enterede details at both those sites and they both seem to say the same although I'm not sure which bits are important.

On that basis (with your neighbour’s agreement) I would refer it back to the BT complaints team requesting they explain why it cannot go through the 'Gaining provider led process' given that both the current supplier and BT are using Openreach equipment, and if they don’t want to respond that they provide the deadlock letter necessary that would to enable your neighbour to complain to the Communications Ombudsman (https://www.ombudsman-services.org/sect ... unications).

My bet would be that someone at BT would look properly at the problem before issuing that letter.

[XFool]

No mention by them of any new installation fee.

I'm now just wondering if this has anything to do with the switchover to digital lines which I think comes up in 2025??

I sort of wondered that. What if she is in a "Stop Sell" area? But then, there already is a phone line in place...

Could just be a badly specified IT system? Many 'issues' are, IMO.

Maybe they're not installing any lines going forward that aren't digital? Mind you, that hardly seems practical - she lives at least two miles from the nearest green box and I can't imagine they're going to run a digital line all that way just for one new customer.

An existing copper line will be "digital" after the analogue switch off. It doesn't have to be fibre, unless fibre (for FTTP broadband) is ordered - in which case the copper line is 'gone'.

[XFool]

We'd both feel a bit better if BT could just explain why they need to have an engineer call to install a new line. All they come up with is "that's what the system says".

No installation fee? Perhaps this is not a real, physical "new line", perhaps it is a virtual or pseudo "new line" order? Simply due to the way the IT system works? Unlikely?

https://www.cvf.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/stopsell-updates/

Summary of UK 5 September 2023 stop sell rules:

"Stop sell applies at a premises level only where that premises has access to an available GEA-FTTP, SOGfast or SOGEA product

From 5 September 2023:
WLR and SMPF will not be available for new supply and CP1 to CP2 transfers. Modify orders to manage debt, 999 updates will be accepted

Where a premises has access to GEA-FTTP, SOGfast, SOGEA, MPF and FTTC (MPF only), no new supply of other products, CP transfers, working line takeovers, addition of broadband to voice lines, bandwidth modify, start of stopped lines or migrations to non-Ultrafast products will be permitted"

I know you said fibre is not available and the above rules are supposed to be in effect from September this year so, seemingly, above should not apply. But is the IT system being used aware of all this? Stranger things have happened (probably!).

[AF62]

unless fibre (for FTTP broadband) is ordered - in which case the copper line is 'gone'.

Only if ‘stop sell’ is in place.

I had Openreach install FTTP last week, and although they removed the master socket and wiring in the house, that was at my request for them to reuse the existing holes in the wall for the new fibre I had the distinct impression they wouldn’t have done it otherwise (paid to get in and get out and nothing more).

And they only removed the copper back to the outside master junction box on the side of the house, the 100 meters or so from the house to the junction box immediately outside in the street was left in place.

‘Stop sell’ isn’t in place in my area so theoretically a new owner could order a new copper phone line and FTTC.

[Laughton]

I managed to find an email address for the BT "Resolution" department so have sent them an email setting out the problem and asking:

"Can you please explain why you cannot go through the "gaining provider led process" in this case especially given that both the current supplier (iTalk) and BT are using Openreach equipment? Her existing line is served by the same cabinet and at the same exchange as any new line you might install."

They have acknowledged receipt and say they aim to get back to me within two working days. Time will tell.

Already confirmed that there is no "Stop Sell" in place.

As for it being a "virtual" of "pseudo" line? If that were the case then presumably they wouldn't need to arrange for an engineer to call at the property.

Thanks for all your continued interest. I will update when I next hear anything.

[Dicky99]

Just a couple of thoughts. Given that you've already gone to the trouble of recording in text the issue in hand (for cut and pasting purposes).
Have you considered posting the conundrum on BT Community BB. As well as the possibility of knowledgeable independent responders I think BT have administrators monitoring content, so laying it on thick about how callous and heartless BT are being might increase it's profile.
Secondly, I have no experience of them but might Age UK be able to assist with advice?

[Laughton]

Ah, good idea about Age UK - they helped another friend of ours with a legal problem a few years ago. I'll wait to see what BT's Resolution Team have to say in response to my email first.

[Laughton]

For anyone retaining even the slightest inteerst, I thought I'd give a final update.

Yesterday, BT confirmed that the transfer of the line (including retention of the customer's telephone number) had been completed.

What a nightmare. This process started 11 weeks ago and I seemingly got caught in a doom loop centred around BT sales department insisting that there was no telephone line at the property but them not being prepared to offer any further explantion (including how I was able to be calling them at the time from the number and property in question).

It was only thanks to the Moderators at the BT Community site who looked into this and explained that the telephone number was registed on the Openreach database at a different property and that this information needed to be corrected at the request of the neighbour's current "supplier".

Finally managed to do that and then everything went fairly smoothly.

Neighbour's last bill with iTalk was for £59.40 so that means she will now have almost £50 per month extra to spend on her weekly shop. I now need to persuade her to start buying Tesco's "Finest" instead of Tesco's "Essential" range.