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BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

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idpickering
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BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322525

Postby idpickering » June 29th, 2020, 12:24 pm


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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322530

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » June 29th, 2020, 12:42 pm

So, that's basically Saltend at Hull? INEOS already owned a chunk of the site and the business, no surprise then.

RVF

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322532

Postby idpickering » June 29th, 2020, 12:49 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:So, that's basically Saltend at Hull? INEOS already owned a chunk of the site and the business, no surprise then.

RVF


Maybe so RVF. I commented over on the other board that with all this dosh sloshing around in BP.'s coffers, maybe my fears of an impending dividend cut are perhaps unfounded. Somehow, I'm still not overly optimistic? ;)

Ian.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322535

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » June 29th, 2020, 1:02 pm

idpickering wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:So, that's basically Saltend at Hull? INEOS already owned a chunk of the site and the business, no surprise then.

RVF


Maybe so RVF. I commented over on the other board that with all this dosh sloshing around in BP.'s coffers, maybe my fears of an impending dividend cut are perhaps unfounded. Somehow, I'm still not overly optimistic? ;)

Ian.

I urge you not to hold your breath. Nobody ever made any money selling stuff to Jim Ratcliffe, seriously. Often the seller lends/gives the buyer the money when deals are done with INEOS. INEOS already owned part of the Acetyls business. Ratcliffe will have been waiting many years for BP to be desperate enough to off load the rest of the business to him. I have watched Ratcliffe and INEOS from the very start. Believe me, BP will not be making money on the deal. (They (BP) effectively paid INEOS to take the entire Grangemouth facility off them). Sorry to be gloomy but that's how Ratcliffe operates.

RVF.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322542

Postby Arborbridge » June 29th, 2020, 1:47 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Ratcliffe will have been waiting many years for BP to be desperate enough to off load the rest of the business to him. I have watched Ratcliffe and INEOS from the very start. Believe me, BP will not be making money on the deal. (They (BP) effectively paid INEOS to take the entire Grangemouth facility off them). Sorry to be gloomy but that's how Ratcliffe operates.

RVF.


Nice work if you can get it. What it is to have patience and a workable strategy.

This suggests BP is selling off bits of itself from desparation - never a good sign.


Arb.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322544

Postby idpickering » June 29th, 2020, 1:52 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:I urge you not to hold your breath. Nobody ever made any money selling stuff to Jim Ratcliffe, seriously. Often the seller lends/gives the buyer the money when deals are done with INEOS. INEOS already owned part of the Acetyls business. Ratcliffe will have been waiting many years for BP to be desperate enough to off load the rest of the business to him. I have watched Ratcliffe and INEOS from the very start. Believe me, BP will not be making money on the deal. (They (BP) effectively paid INEOS to take the entire Grangemouth facility off them). Sorry to be gloomy but that's how Ratcliffe operates.

RVF.


Thank you very much for your post, and words of caution. Your obvious insight is gratefully received too.

My comment re BP. being awash with cash was very tongue in cheek tbh. I do suspect that they'll cut the dividend though. The next results are released on 4 Aug 20, so we'll find out soon enough. The next scheduled ex div date is 13 Aug 20, paid 25 Sep 20. See; https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/busin ... r-2020.pdf

I agree with Arb's comment,

This suggests BP is selling off bits of itself from desparation - never a good sign


I would like to buy more BP. shares, but I can wait until after the next results, and the situation might be clearer, maybe?

Ian.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322669

Postby Nimrod103 » June 29th, 2020, 10:16 pm

idpickering wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:I urge you not to hold your breath. Nobody ever made any money selling stuff to Jim Ratcliffe, seriously. Often the seller lends/gives the buyer the money when deals are done with INEOS. INEOS already owned part of the Acetyls business. Ratcliffe will have been waiting many years for BP to be desperate enough to off load the rest of the business to him. I have watched Ratcliffe and INEOS from the very start. Believe me, BP will not be making money on the deal. (They (BP) effectively paid INEOS to take the entire Grangemouth facility off them). Sorry to be gloomy but that's how Ratcliffe operates.

RVF.


Thank you very much for your post, and words of caution. Your obvious insight is gratefully received too.

My comment re BP. being awash with cash was very tongue in cheek tbh. I do suspect that they'll cut the dividend though. The next results are released on 4 Aug 20, so we'll find out soon enough. The next scheduled ex div date is 13 Aug 20, paid 25 Sep 20. See; https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/busin ... r-2020.pdf

I agree with Arb's comment,

This suggests BP is selling off bits of itself from desparation - never a good sign


I would like to buy more BP. shares, but I can wait until after the next results, and the situation might be clearer, maybe?

Ian.


Surely now is the best time to buy another oil company? With all that cash, BP might go shopping.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322681

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » June 30th, 2020, 1:14 am

Arborbridge wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Ratcliffe will have been waiting many years for BP to be desperate enough to off load the rest of the business to him. I have watched Ratcliffe and INEOS from the very start. Believe me, BP will not be making money on the deal. (They (BP) effectively paid INEOS to take the entire Grangemouth facility off them). Sorry to be gloomy but that's how Ratcliffe operates.

RVF.


Nice work if you can get it. What it is to have patience and a workable strategy.

This suggests BP is selling off bits of itself from desparation - never a good sign.


Arb.

Exactly. That's INEOS's business model to a tee. Buy or preferably be given assets nobody else wants and sweat the asset like never before. Believe me, I have watched INEOS right from the very start. There is no money to be made by selling assets to INEOS, quite the opposite in fact. Ratcliffe is a buyer of last resort.

PS - Now INEOS, ex-BP entire Grangemouth refinery + petrochemicals business, Forties Pipeline and Terminal and now Acetyls business. I doubt Ratcliffe paid a penny in real terms for any of those assets. There are very good reasons why INEOS group is a private entity, noboy will ever really know what goes on. They are now one of the world's biggest players in the chemical industry. I doubt a public company could ever exist on Ratcliffe's busainess model. I have to say, he might be a nasty piece of work in business but there are many aspects I admire about him. Certainly the UK economy would be far richer if we had a few thousand Ratcliffe's out there rather than just one.

RVF

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322682

Postby Dod101 » June 30th, 2020, 1:30 am

This is and never was a good time to be buying BP. Just as always, their culture is wrong and they seem never able to get on the front foot. INEOS is very much the opposite but they are sadly not a public company.

Shell is not a brilliant investment but is a lot better than BP.

Dod

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322686

Postby idpickering » June 30th, 2020, 4:09 am

Dod101 wrote:This is and never was a good time to be buying BP. Just as always, their culture is wrong and they seem never able to get on the front foot. INEOS is very much the opposite but they are sadly not a public company.

Shell is not a brilliant investment but is a lot better than BP.

Dod


I agree Shell are better. In fact, in my HYP, my oil investment is tilted towards them rather than BP. I do like to hold both though.

Ian.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322709

Postby pyad » June 30th, 2020, 10:02 am

Dod101 wrote:This is and never was a good time to be buying BP. Just as always, their culture is wrong and they seem never able to get on the front foot. INEOS is very much the opposite but they are sadly not a public company.

Shell is not a brilliant investment but is a lot better than BP.

Dod


That claim requires a quantitative definition and since this is the HYP board, income should be major component of that definition. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what you say, just that for the benefit of readers it's not adequate to state that one share is merely "better" than another without quantifying why that should be so, from an HYP viewpoint.

Moderator Message:
Edited to remove personal rudeness. Re-quotes also similarly edited. -- MDW1954

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322725

Postby idpickering » June 30th, 2020, 10:40 am

pyad wrote:
Dod101 wrote:This is and never was a good time to be buying BP. Just as always, their culture is wrong and they seem never able to get on the front foot. INEOS is very much the opposite but they are sadly not a public company.

Shell is not a brilliant investment but is a lot better than BP.

Dod


That claim requires a quantitative definition and since this is the HYP board, income should be major component of that definition. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what you say, just that for the benefit of readers it's not adequate to state that one share is merely "better" than another without quantifying why that should be so, from an HYP viewpoint.


If I may Stephen, and thanks for your input, for me Shell get the nod. I’m not an expert in oil companies, but as far as I know, Shell haven’t had a disastrous accident as per the BP. episode. Also the management made the decision to cut the dividend, which struck me as very brave, and honest management. Better than hiding their noses in the sand.

The bottom line for me though, is that I’m not an expert, hold both oil majors, and am happy to hedge my bets between them both, because of my ignorance.

Ian.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322730

Postby pyad » June 30th, 2020, 11:07 am

Holding both oils equally would be my current and recent advice too Ian.

Shell have most certainly had their share of serious problems in the past including a major accounting error and spills etc. Accidents come with the territory of big oil and also mining. They even had to pay compensation to shareholders a few years ago for the accounting errors. So litttle evidence there that Shell is "better" quantitatively speaking.

Looking at purely the present situation, it's a little odd to welcome a dividend cut in a share held for income. BP may also cut their payout in future following Shell but similarly, that would hardly be welcome.

I still say though that the claim Shell is somehow "better" than BP for the HYP strategy requires justification in numbers, not just some sort of feeling which is what Dod seems to suggest.
Last edited by pyad on June 30th, 2020, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322736

Postby Dod101 » June 30th, 2020, 11:14 am

pyad wrote:Holding both oils equally would be my current and recent advice too Ian.


Unlike pyad apparently, I do not feel qualified to give advice and so I will say no more.

Dod

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322737

Postby pyad » June 30th, 2020, 11:16 am

Dod101 wrote:
Unlike pyad apparently, I do not feel qualified to give advice and so I will say no more.

Dod


You just did exactly that when stating that Shell is better than BP. You certainly "feel qualified" to write an enormous number of messages on this and other boards giving your opinons on anything and everything so why the sudden shyness to back up your opinion now?

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322741

Postby Arborbridge » June 30th, 2020, 11:39 am

Dod101 wrote:
pyad wrote:Holding both oils equally would be my current and recent advice too Ian.


Unlike pyad apparently, I do not feel qualified to give advice and so I will say no more.

Dod


I find that an interesting exchange: on one hand the touchy feely investor (Dod), on the other the numbers man (pyad).

I'm not taking "sides", just saying we may have two approaches which are probably rather different.

Arb.

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322744

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » June 30th, 2020, 11:44 am

FWIW, I have worked for both Shell and BP. And other large and small energy companies. I only own Shell and have never owned BP. Make of that what you will. But I wouldn't suggest I am giving advice to anyone. Merely expressing an informed opinion.

RVF

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322750

Postby Dod101 » June 30th, 2020, 12:10 pm

pyad wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Unlike pyad apparently, I do not feel qualified to give advice and so I will say no more.

Dod


You just did exactly that when stating that Shell is better than BP. You certainly "feel qualified" to write an enormous number of messages on this and other boards giving your opinons on anything and everything so why the sudden shyness to back up your opinion now?


I am pleased that you appear to follow my comments on companies which I feel I know something about, but that is what they are comments, never ever advice. There is a world of difference between advice and comment. Sites such as this can only thrive on comment. I have resolved not to get involved in pointless arguments but I am always prepared to give an opinion on any share which I feel I know something about. People can ignore these comments of course and many most likely do but disagreements, or different points of view are what makes the Boards. Thinking about these matters and writing something down has often helped me to clarify my thoughts and often the response will be something I have not thought of, so at worst, they are helpful for me, even if everybody else ignores them.

Dod

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322831

Postby Gengulphus » June 30th, 2020, 7:52 pm

Dod101 wrote:
pyad wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Unlike pyad apparently, I do not feel qualified to give advice and so I will say no more.

You just did exactly that when stating that Shell is better than BP. You certainly "feel qualified" to write an enormous number of messages on this and other boards giving your opinons on anything and everything so why the sudden shyness to back up your opinion now?

I am pleased that you appear to follow my comments on companies which I feel I know something about, but that is what they are comments, never ever advice. There is a world of difference between advice and comment. Sites such as this can only thrive on comment. ...

I know there's a difference between advice and comment in some settings - e.g. the advice one gets from a financial adviser is paid for, either by oneself or someone else, and there are obligations for those who get paid to provide financial advice to be qualified to do so, not to be negligent in providing it, and so on. But in the setting of TLF, I see no difference other than the purely superficial one of the words used - the only difference I see between "This is and never was a good time to be buying BP." and various other sentences like "I advise people not to buy BP and never have advised it.", "I neither recommend nor have ever recommended buying BP.", and many other variants on the theme is that the person who wrote "This is and never was a good time to be buying BP." doesn't seem to have noticed that it actually says rather clumsily that now is a good time to buy BP, unlike all previous times. Presumably not what they intended!

Basically, I'd suggest treating everything said on TLF as comment and/or opinion, since that's basically all it can be. And at least as far as I am concerned, the important distinction is instead between comment/opinion that gives an indication of the facts & reasoning it's based on and comment/opinion that doesn't. The former is helpful - I can look at the facts & reasoning to decide whether I think it's informed comment/opinion and whether I agree with it, and even if I don't, it can spark further thoughts and useful discussion. The latter is generally unhelpful, tending just to spark somewhat disguised "Is not", "Is too", "Is not", "Is too", ... exchanges.

Gengulphus

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Re: BP. agrees to sell its petrochemicals business to INEOS posted on Company News Board

#322834

Postby Dod101 » June 30th, 2020, 8:07 pm

Gengulphus has got me there. What I should have said is that 'This is not and never was a good time to be buying BP' Still rather clumsy I suppose but at least it is what I meant to say. Most reading it would probably know that. That is a comment reflecting my views. It is certainly not a recommendation or advice for action.

I think someone who appears occasionally and says something to the effect that ' I would/would not advise.........' is promoting something more than simply comment or opinion, at least it could very easily be taken as something more. It also sounds somewhat as though the writer has some authority for making the statement. It probably also breaches a regulation code, particularly when as I understand it the one who uses this sort of phrase apparently at one time, if no longer, promoted a tip sheet.

I had no intention of continuing this discussion and would not have but for Gengulphus's post.

Dod


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