Mapeley

[valueinvestor123]

Mapeley used to trade publically (during the HYP golden era of 2008
Does anyone still have them? They delisted at some point and I still hold them but don't know when/how I can sell them. So a true HYP holding (though it pays no dividend, as far as I know).
thanks! vi123

[PinkDalek]

Mapeley used to trade publically (during the HYP golden era of 2008
Does anyone still have them? They delisted at some point and I still hold them but don't know when/how I can sell them. So a true HYP holding (though it pays no dividend, as far as I know).
thanks! vi123

To sell them you need to find a willing buyer:

Mapeley Limited’s shares are no longer traded on any stock exchange and there is no trading facility or public market for them. As the shares are unlisted there is no quoted share price and, while they still have a worth, it is more difficult to ascribe a value to them.

A shareholder wishing to sell their shares needs to find a purchaser and must agree a price with the purchaser. Mapeley is not able to advise on how to find a buyer for shares or the value or price of shares.

https://www.mapeley.com/InvestorRelations.aspx

You can find the latest filed accounts for the loss making Mapeley Estates Limited (the main subsidiary) here:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ng-history

Do you receive any direct communications from Mapeley Limited (registered in Guernsey) or is your holding not in certificated form?

[valueinvestor123]

Thanks for the info. How do I find a buyer?
I hold the shares with various brokers (not in Crest form, I think it's nominee, as I don't receive any correspondence).

[PinkDalek]

Thanks for the info. How do I find a buyer?

With difficulty I would imagine. Maybe Fortress are still in the market but somehow I doubt it, that having been said with little recent knowledge of Mapeley, other than what I've seen today.

I hold the shares with various brokers (not in Crest form, I think it's nominee, as I don't receive any correspondence).

Again from https://www.mapeley.com/InvestorRelations.aspx which you may have looked at.

If you hold your shares through a nominee and want to transfer them into your own name you should contact your nominee in the first instance. Mapeley Limited's shares remain in the Crest trading system. ... Each year, in accordance with Guernsey company law, Mapeley Limited sends its annual report and financial statements to all shareholders on the share register at their registered address. ... information on the AGM is sent to all [registered] shareholders in advance of the meeting. ... If you own shares in Mapeley Limited through a nominee the shares will be registered in the name of your nominee: their name will appear in the company’s share register. The company only communicates with registered shareholders. Your nominee may not forward communications they receive in respect of your shares unless you contact them and make arrangements with them to do so.


If you are looking to get certificated holdings, it would presumably be at some cost, especially as your holdings are with more than one broker.

[yieldhog]

I'm currently trying to get Mapeley shares transferred out of my SIPP into my taxable dealing account.

In order to complete this I need to do a "connected party transaction", for which I need a fair market value. For the purposes of this transaction my trustee will accept NAV as fair market value.

Using the 2018 Mapeley report and accounts, I calculate the NAV per share at £3.67.

Has anyone on this board ever completed a connected party transaction to get shares out of a SIPP?
Secondly, has anyone else calculated Mapeley's most recent NAV per share?

[PinkDalek]

[Using the 2018 Mapeley report and accounts, I calculate the NAV per share at £3.67.

... Secondly, has anyone else calculated Mapeley's most recent NAV per share?

No, sorry, never a holder, but presumably you have a copy of Mapeley Limited's 31 December 2018 report and accounts. Do you by any chance know of a version available online and, if so, can you link to it?

With regards to the NAV acceptable to the trustee, do they wish you to take into account the transactions post 31 December 2018 as outlined here (but with no numerical detail that I can see) https://www.mapeley.com/news.aspx (bearing in mind the accounts are to a date over 12 months in the past)?

If that's the case, have you attempted to make contact with Mapeley via https://www.mapeley.com/InvestorRelations.aspx? They may, I don't know, have a current NAV (possibly).

They do, of course, state Mapeley is not able to advise on how to find a buyer for shares or the value or price of shares but I would imagine there's no harm in asking.

May I ask, purely of academic interest, why are you attempting to get the holding out of your SIPP? Having asked that question I see you asked similarly back in September here viewtopic.php?p=254996#p254996 (when I directed you to this thread) but I'm still unsure why, other than tidying up generally.

[yieldhog]

PinkDalek,

I do have a copy of the 2018 report but I'm not aware of any online source.

The Trustees have said they will accept a NAV from the 2019 accounts, even though it may be somewhat out of date by the time the transaction takes place. I'm happy to go along with that.

The main reason I want the shares out of my SIPP is because my wife will inherit the SIPP when I die and I don't want to leave her with a problem to deal with. If she wanted to move the SIPP elsewhere or liquidate some or all of it, the Mapely holding could prove troublesome.

Y

[PinkDalek]

Understood and good luck with it all.

I didn't reply to

Has anyone on this board ever completed a connected party transaction to get shares out of a SIPP?

but if you get no replies to that part on here, try:

Pensions - Practical Problems
viewforum.php?f=17

[yieldhog]

PinkDalek,

Thanks.

I'll try posting on the Pensions board as you suggest.

I'll also update on the outcome of my attempt to get the Mapeley out of my SIPP. If last year's experience is anything to go by then the 2019 accounts should be out in May, so it could be anytime after that.

Y

[valueinvestor123]

Anyone managed to sell their shares more recently? Or get certificates? I have been asking my brokers for ages to send me certificates.

[PinkDalek]

Anyone managed to sell their shares more recently? Or get certificates? I have been asking my brokers for ages to send me certificates.

No help, I know, but for any other readers, your recent post on TLF elsewhere said And the old broker won’t give me the bloody certificate (even though I paid for it) because ‘of the situation with Covid’. Urrgh., so at least we know at some stage you should be receiving the share certificate and I'm glad you are getting somewhere having started this thread in 2018.

When you get that certificate will you be attempting to sell (seems likely from what you've said so far but where's that willing buyer ...)/frame it/give the shareholding away to, say, a charity*** or unconnected third party**** etc?

*** I've ignored mention of any potential capital loss restrictions for CGT purposes for the moment, as that would potentially side-track the present discussion ...

**** I ask that part as I know an old Fool (not me) who collects such things but wouldn't, I would imagine, wish to pay anything for Mapeley Limited shares!

[ElectronicFur]

I'd be interested to hear an update on this. I still own some as well, but not chased my broker up yet.

PinkDalek, what are the capital loss restrictions?

[PinkDalek]

PinkDalek, what are the capital loss restrictions?

See, for example, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/charities-detailed-guidance-notes/chapter-5-giving-land-buildings-shares-and-securities-to-charity#chapter-528-the-charitys-capital-gains-tax-position which includes:

5.28. 3 Where assets are given to a charity, or sold to a charity for no more than they cost the donor to acquire the donor is treated as having disposed of the assets for such an amount as gives rise to neither a gain nor a loss.

[yieldhog]

For those still holding Mapeley Limited shares, it may be of interest to know that I have just received my shares certificate from the registrars.

I posted some time ago that I was trying to get the shares out of my SIPP so that they would not cause any impediment to transfer/closure/inheritance of my SIPP. I also wanted to get annual reports from the company which I could not get while the shares are in a pooled account.

The process took some considerable time and involved getting an independant valuation from my accountant.

If anyone is interested in more details of the process of getting the shares out of a SIPP then please let me know.

Y

[uspaul666]

Hi there. I am a holder, in certificated form, of these. I’m interested to know anything you can say about your next steps. Isn’t there still a ‘problem’ of what to do with your estate’s holding of these shares? Not as complex as having them stuck in a SIPP maybe but an executor will still need to write off or gift the holding?

[yieldhog]

uspaul,
I had originally intended to give them to charity but on asking my Trustees at the time (Curtis Banks) to arrange this I received the following reply:

"We are unable to gift shares to charity without confirmation that there will be no returns from the investment, as should we receive any such returns they would be classed as an unauthorised payment and therefore would be liable for tax charges. However, if you are able to obtain confirmation from the company that there will be no returns made from this investment, or an independent valuation from a certified financial professional (such as an accountant)which confirms that the shares are valueless, we will be able to instruct the gifting of these shares to charity."

After getting a copy of the latest Mapeley Limited Annual Report we found that the company still had a NAV of over £3 per share and hence my accountant was unable to confirm the shares had no value.

The Trustees then said they would accept a NAV as market value but could not accept the latest Annual Report NAV since, according to them, the NAV had to be from the next available Annual Report, which at the time was several months away. However, when the next Annual Report eventually arrived the Trustees came up with some nonsensical argument as to why the NAV could not after all be used.

My accontant then put forward a calculation for a current market value which complied with the rules for a Connected Party Transaction and we were able to get the shares out of my SIPP.

I haven't yet had chance to decide what I will do with the shares now that they are out of my SIPP, but whatever it is it should not present any serious administrative problems. If I can find a charity that wants them I may go that route, or I may just pass them on to my heirs.

Y

[Hedge63]

@yieldhog. I’d like to hear more about your transaction in Mapeley. I hold them in my SIPP and because they are ‘untradeable’ by the trading account platform, I cant move my platform. Neither Eqi the SIPP investment manager or James Hay who manage the pension wrapper have any clue what to do here and keep bucking the issue. I have sent an email to Mapeley Investor Relations but have had no reply. The obvious solution is to trade them to my dealing account or just hold them personally as a paper certificate.

So how did you beat the system? Any help would be very much appreciated.

James

[yieldhog]

Hi James,

Sorry to hear of your problem regarding Mapeley shares. This was exactly the reason I went through the process of getting the shares out of my SIPP and sent to me in certificate form.

The only way I could get the shares out of my SIPP was to follow the instructions from the SIPP Trustee, which in your case is James Hay.

I was instructed that I needed to carry out a Connected Party Transaction as follows:

"In order for the connected party transaction to be carried out in line with Trustee and HMRC regulations, I would be grateful if you could arrange for an independent valuation to be produced for your Mapeley Limited shares; this can be carried out by a suitably qualified financial professional, such as an accountant. In order to be accepted for this purpose, any valuation must clearly state the following:

• The date of the valuation;
• The value, and where a spread is given, this must be within 10%, i.e. £0.95-£1.05;
• That the valuation represents ‘market value’ for the purposes of section 272 of The Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992;
• The basis of the valuation (to include any relevant qualifications or assumptions);
• The name of the person carrying out the valuation; and
• Confirmation that the valuer has no conflict of interest, with either the company or the investor, in providing the valuation.

The valuation should be addressed to the Trustees and must be received in writing before we will confirm that the transaction can go ahead. Please note that in the current situation, we can accept a scanned copy via return email, providing that it is on letter-headed paper and signed by the valuer."

I asked my own accountant (the person who does my personal taxes) to provide the valuation according to the above instructions, which he did.
The Trustees accepted the valuation and asked me to pay them for the shares, which I did. This amount was then credited to my SIPP and the SIPP dealing platform (EQi) were instructed to deliver the share certificate to my home address, which they did.

Things to be aware of:
1. James Hay will probably require a fee for carrying out the Connected Party Transaction. I believe the fee I paid was about £250.
2. The accountant will probably require a fee for carrying out the valuation. I think I paid about £650.
3. The whole process could take several months.

Hope this helps speed the process for you.

Y

[uspaul666]

I am grateful for the detail and I realise certificated is better but I think it’s true that you’ve had to pay heavy fees and have paid actual cash for something that you (or your heirs) may never be able to find a buyer for. I consider myself lucky that my SIPP (or ISA?) provider was not willing to hold these for me and immediately sent me the paper certificates. I’m resigned to waiting and hoping they relist one day.

[Hedge63]

Thanks for the detail Yieldhog. Where is helps is that some of the characters in this sad tale are the same as yours. Eqi simply say they cant do a transaction as it isnt electronic. James Hay are unusually unhelpful. I suspect most of this is through ignorance though you would think that there would be a known solution for a Mapeley Enquiry by both parties - Eqi especially. Your response give me some ammo.