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Insurers

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Dod101
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Re: Insurers

#297137

Postby Dod101 » April 2nd, 2020, 8:57 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Wizard wrote:The decision on bank dividends was made above Sam Woods' pay grade, I am 100% sure of that. It will have been Bailey and Sunak who agreed that. They are just using Woods as the fall guy.


And we were worried about state direction under the Corbynistas :lol:


I and others have posted so much recently that I cannot remember on which thread I made the point you are making that Jeremy Corbyn could have written the letter written by Sam Woods and then I was chastised by somebody for having a fixation about Corbyn! But Corbyn will be proud of Sam and will be claiming that he was right about state intervention all along (which I think he already has).

Dod

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Re: Insurers

#297140

Postby Dod101 » April 2nd, 2020, 9:05 pm

monabri wrote:
Wizard wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:The difference between the banks and the insurers is that the banks are being asked to increase loans to businesses on a very large scale. The insurers merely have to ensure they can meet valid insurance claims on existing policies.

I wonder whether the ask of insurers is to meet a large number of claims that are not actually valid for political expedience.



Wouldn't it be prudent of the CEO to ask the owners of the company before splashing out on claims simply for political expediency? I wonder if the managers of IT funds would agree when they see the dearth of divis from other companies into their funds?


The insurers will not be splashing out on claims for political expediency at least I do not think so and I do not think that that is even the point. The point is that insurers like banks need to have very substantial reserves (as all who invest in say Legal & General will know) and these reserves do not just sit as cash but are of course invested and will now be worth a good deal less than they were before the crash. I think that is the point and to that extent is a perfectly legitimate point being made although insurers will not need Sam to remind them. They live with that all the time and in almost every earnings update they quote their Solvency Ratio which is a reflection of their reserves.

Dod

monabri
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Re: Insurers

#297172

Postby monabri » April 2nd, 2020, 10:52 pm

Article on our favourite guy in The Times today..

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-na ... -zxrmbls2k

Darka
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Re: Insurers

#297213

Postby Darka » April 3rd, 2020, 8:12 am

A welcome update from SLA.

"Standard Life to press ahead with £300m dividend"

"'We are in a totally different position from banks.' Shareholders will receive their dividends at the end of May. "

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mar ... idend.html

Dod101
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Re: Insurers

#297216

Postby Dod101 » April 3rd, 2020, 8:20 am

Douglas Flint of course was chairman of HSBC and his views should carry some weight but it is very early days since SLA will not be paying its dividend for nearly two months. But it is encouraging that they are pressing ahead. It will be interesting to see if the PRA in due course reacts. Not sure that we should breathe easy yet.

Dod

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Re: Insurers

#297217

Postby Darka » April 3rd, 2020, 8:23 am

Dod101 wrote:Douglas Flint of course was chairman of HSBC and his views should carry some weight but it is very early days since SLA will not be paying its dividend for nearly two months. But it is encouraging that they are pressing ahead. It will be interesting to see if the PRA in due course reacts. Not sure that we should breathe easy yet.

Dod


Completely agree, the PRA might see this as some kind of challenge and decide to stamp down on it.

But for now, we can be hopeful I think.

idpickering
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Re: Insurers

#297218

Postby idpickering » April 3rd, 2020, 8:27 am

Darka wrote:A welcome update from SLA.

"Standard Life to press ahead with £300m dividend"

"'We are in a totally different position from banks.' Shareholders will receive their dividends at the end of May. "

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mar ... idend.html


Thanks for this Darka. I hold these in my HYP, and get that they're a different beast to other financial outfits of whatever ilk.

Ian.

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Re: Insurers

#297219

Postby Darka » April 3rd, 2020, 8:31 am

idpickering wrote:Thanks for this Darka. I hold these in my HYP, and get that they're a different beast to other financial outfits of whatever ilk.

Ian.


You're very welcome Ian, just trying to help update everyone with the news as I see it, I feel knowing who is cutting and who isn't is better than not knowing, even if the decision itself isn't welcome.

It allows us all to plan better.

idpickering
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Re: Insurers

#297221

Postby idpickering » April 3rd, 2020, 8:35 am

Darka wrote:
You're very welcome Ian, just trying to help update everyone with the news as I see it, I feel knowing who is cutting and who isn't is better than not knowing, even if the decision itself isn't welcome.

It allows us all to plan better.


Cheers for that Darka. Your thread regarding the dividend cutters is very helpful too. I've got everything crossed that LGEN pays out.

Ian.

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Re: Insurers

#297222

Postby Darka » April 3rd, 2020, 8:36 am

idpickering wrote:Cheers for that Darka. Your thread regarding the dividend cutters is very helpful too. I've got everything crossed that LGEN pays out.

Ian.



Me too, losing the Banks is annoying but I'd like to keep LGEN along with SLA.

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Re: Insurers

#297242

Postby onthemove » April 3rd, 2020, 9:30 am

scrumpyjack wrote:The difference between the banks and the insurers is that the banks are being asked to increase loans to businesses on a very large scale. The insurers merely have to ensure they can meet valid insurance claims on existing policies.


As long as this in France doesn't start to set a precedent...!

"La mutuelle d’assurance MAIF, ayant constaté une baisse de la sinistralité automobile d’environ – 75 %, a décidé « de prendre part à l’effort de solidarité collectif » en remboursant une partie des cotisations d’assurances automobiles à ses sociétaires." https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article ... _3234.html


Google translate...

"The mutual insurance company MAIF, having noted a drop in automobile claims of around - 75%, decided "to take part in the collective solidarity effort" by reimbursing part of the automobile insurance contributions to its members."

Dod101
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Re: Insurers

#297250

Postby Dod101 » April 3rd, 2020, 9:41 am

The other point about SLA is that they are no longer an insurer as far as I know (that is in the eyes of the PRA) because they sold their insurance business to Phoenix Holdings which has left them with a shareholding in Phoenix of just under 20%, to be reduced to about 15% if Phoenix's deal goes through to buy REassure fro Swissre. So as purely a fund manager apart from that shareholding, they should be outside of the remit of the PRA, which may be why they feel confident in pressing ahead.

The same cannot be said for say Legal & General as a very large insurer and what is more they are quite heavily into infrastructure, owning at least one housebuilder, Cala Homes, in Scotland and now building prefabricated housing as well as directly investing in other infrastructure projects. The PRA will not want to see any of that at risk so I think they will probably be very firmly in its sights, however unfair that may be.

Dod

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Re: Insurers

#297260

Postby Redhill » April 3rd, 2020, 10:15 am

Wizard wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:The difference between the banks and the insurers is that the banks are being asked to increase loans to businesses on a very large scale. The insurers merely have to ensure they can meet valid insurance claims on existing policies.

I wonder whether the ask of insurers is to meet a large number of claims that are not actually valid for political expedience.


You mean for the insurance companies to give away some cash because the government asks them to? And what type of "not actually valid" claims are you thinking? To pay death claims for someone who hasn't died perhaps. or to continue paying an annuity after someone has died?

To bundle the life insurance companies into the same basket as banks has no logic as their operational cashflow is largely pre-determined - they pay death claims and annuities on the basis of their legal liabilities. To require them to conserve cash by deferring a dividend would also suggest they are going to need to use this cash for some purpose outside normal operations. What could that be? Is the suggestion the government is going to force insurers to become lenders to businesses and individuals overnight, or perhaps "persuade" them to provide cheap finance to banks so the banks can lend more?

The move on the banks is clearly political and smacks of payback for the government help they received a decade ago. The argument that banks need their dividend cash to fund loans to troubled businesses is superficial unless the government is also going to take over the decision making on loan criteria as without that the banks will simply carry on a business as usual approach. To apply the same restraint on insurance company dividends would be illogical - and on which sector would the next move be?

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Re: Insurers

#297270

Postby Wizard » April 3rd, 2020, 10:26 am

Redhill wrote:
Wizard wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:The difference between the banks and the insurers is that the banks are being asked to increase loans to businesses on a very large scale. The insurers merely have to ensure they can meet valid insurance claims on existing policies.

I wonder whether the ask of insurers is to meet a large number of claims that are not actually valid for political expedience.


You mean for the insurance companies to give away some cash because the government asks them to? And what type of "not actually valid" claims are you thinking? To pay death claims for someone who hasn't died perhaps. or to continue paying an annuity after someone has died?

To bundle the life insurance companies into the same basket as banks has no logic as their operational cashflow is largely pre-determined - they pay death claims and annuities on the basis of their legal liabilities. To require them to conserve cash by deferring a dividend would also suggest they are going to need to use this cash for some purpose outside normal operations. What could that be? Is the suggestion the government is going to force insurers to become lenders to businesses and individuals overnight, or perhaps "persuade" them to provide cheap finance to banks so the banks can lend more?

The move on the banks is clearly political and smacks of payback for the government help they received a decade ago. The argument that banks need their dividend cash to fund loans to troubled businesses is superficial unless the government is also going to take over the decision making on loan criteria as without that the banks will simply carry on a business as usual approach. To apply the same restraint on insurance company dividends would be illogical - and on which sector would the next move be?

Well I think your opening paragraph includes some silly examples, for an effect* no doubt.

I was thinking more of the discussion about business interruption insurance somewhere on TLF, I believe the Govt. 'agreed' with insurers that they would not resist Covid-19 claims even after the ABI said few policies would cover it.


* I do hope that is right and it should not have been affect, apologies if it is wrong.

Dod101
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Re: Insurers

#297272

Postby Dod101 » April 3rd, 2020, 10:27 am

There is a risk to insurer's reserves I suspect, as has already been discussed.

If the move on banks is political what would the benefit be in banning dividends? Not paying out dividends will make the banks more secure not less so the losers are the shareholders not the banks except to the extent that bonuses and so on are to be banned as well which will directly affect the bank executives. If that is the aim it is a very ham fisted way to go about it.

Dod

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Re: Insurers

#297293

Postby 77ss » April 3rd, 2020, 10:58 am

Dod101 wrote:.....I made the point you are making that Jeremy Corbyn could have written the letter written by Sam Woods and then I was chastised by somebody for having a fixation about Corbyn! But Corbyn will be proud of Sam and will be claiming that he was right about state intervention all along (which I think he already has).

Dod


A demonstrable fixation!

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Re: Insurers

#297335

Postby Redhill » April 3rd, 2020, 12:30 pm

Wizard wrote:
Redhill wrote:
Wizard wrote:I wonder whether the ask of insurers is to meet a large number of claims that are not actually valid for political expedience.


You mean for the insurance companies to give away some cash because the government asks them to? And what type of "not actually valid" claims are you thinking? To pay death claims for someone who hasn't died perhaps. or to continue paying an annuity after someone has died?

To bundle the life insurance companies into the same basket as banks has no logic as their operational cashflow is largely pre-determined - they pay death claims and annuities on the basis of their legal liabilities. To require them to conserve cash by deferring a dividend would also suggest they are going to need to use this cash for some purpose outside normal operations. What could that be? Is the suggestion the government is going to force insurers to become lenders to businesses and individuals overnight, or perhaps "persuade" them to provide cheap finance to banks so the banks can lend more?

The move on the banks is clearly political and smacks of payback for the government help they received a decade ago. The argument that banks need their dividend cash to fund loans to troubled businesses is superficial unless the government is also going to take over the decision making on loan criteria as without that the banks will simply carry on a business as usual approach. To apply the same restraint on insurance company dividends would be illogical - and on which sector would the next move be?

Well I think your opening paragraph includes some silly examples, for an effect* no doubt.

I was thinking more of the discussion about business interruption insurance somewhere on TLF, I believe the Govt. 'agreed' with insurers that they would not resist Covid-19 claims even after the ABI said few policies would cover it.


* I do hope that is right and it should not have been affect, apologies if it is wrong.


Wizard, perhaps we are thinking of different insurers? I was referring specifically to LGEN which has been mentioned above, but my point applies to all L&P business operations. LGEN is a life and pensions insurer and doesn't write the type of commercial insurance to which you refer. I'm not sure whether that also applied to Aviva?

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Re: Insurers

#297338

Postby Dod101 » April 3rd, 2020, 12:35 pm

Aviva is a very big general insurer as well as writing a life and pensions book. Is it the case that insurers have been brow beaten into covering business interruption as a result of the coronavirus? I have not seen that anywhere.

Dod

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Re: Insurers

#297346

Postby Wizard » April 3rd, 2020, 12:49 pm

I am afraid I am not up to speed on the business each insurer writes. My comment was more generally rather than LGEN specific I was merely pointing out that relying on the small print may be politically dangerous at the moment, so insurers may end up paying out on some claims that in different times they may have sort to resist. I think if they did this they would be acting in what they thought was the long term interests of the shareholders, considering the reputational position and perhaps mindful of the potential impact of making political enemies.

This seem to be a very emotive issue. But the reality is that pensioners relying on dividend income for their standard of living are a small proportion of the population. Many of those who are currently on furlough, not earning from self employment or worried their small business will not survive may view the economic impact as one caused by the Govt.'s. desire to prevent deaths from Covid-19 that would disproportionately hit those in their retirement. In the circumstances they may feel that losing some dividend income should be gratefully accepted by those who are the main beneficiaries of crashing the economy.

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Re: Insurers

#297388

Postby richfool » April 3rd, 2020, 2:09 pm

The pressure continues:
LONDON, April 3 (Reuters) - The Bank of England said on Friday it backed calls from the European Union's insurance regulator for insurers to pay close attention to protecting policyholders when deciding whether to pay dividends or bonuses.

"We therefore expect firms to be prudent in deciding on dividend payments or variable remuneration in view of the elevated levels of uncertainty presented by coronavirus and its impact on the global economy," a Bank of England spokesperson said.

Shares in top European insurers sank on Friday after the European Insurance and Occupational Pensions Authority said on Thursday evening that insurers should suspend dividends and share buybacks, and postpone bonuses where possible. (Reporting by Huw Jones; Editing by Alison Williams)

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/boe-b ... 26321.html


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