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How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

For discussion of the practicalities of setting up and operating income-portfolios which follow the HYP Group Guidelines. READ Guidelines before posting
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Gengulphus
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How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#326957

Postby Gengulphus » July 17th, 2020, 11:00 pm

At the end of viewtopic.php?p=326907#p326907:

Luniversal wrote:... That said, beginning a HYP is much tougher than in 2011.

The ongoing dividend massacre is unparalleled; two world wars and the Great Crash showed nothing as savage. It undermines pyad's selectional requisite that dividends should have risen over a quinquennium. Hence doubt arises about the High Yield Portfolio system's operability.

If too few unblemished records are intact to wrap up a 15- or 20-sector collection, the essential diversification principle cannot be honoured. Unsullied portions of the FTSE 100 no longer look anything like adequate to fill all slots. The criteria might be relaxed; but delving deep into the FTSE 250, and/or ignoring 2020's income cuts as freaks, are conceptual leaps into the unknown I would not take. Should next year be the nadir for income, not until 2027 will five-year records be re-established and a fairly free hand in stockpicking facilitated.

This is no criticism of HYP's principles; only an impression that they cannot be implemented without violence to the guidelines which express them in practice. If you drip funds into a portfolio, it may be another story, but I am a lump-sum, 'all or nothing' investor-- as was the system's originator when he proposed it.

This seems to me to be an issue that is well worth discussing, in a thread of its own to avoid it being mixed up with discussion of the 9-year-old LuniHYP100, and also to label the thread containing the discussion sensibly, making it easier for those interested to find it. So I'm starting this thread for that discussion... I do intend to add a more substantial contribution to it than just echoing Luniversal's issue, but it's too late to get started on that contribution tonight!

Gengulphus

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#326972

Postby Arborbridge » July 18th, 2020, 8:04 am

It is difficult to put myself in the place I was in 2006-7 when I gained control of my pension pot. I suspected we were on the edge of a substantial market fall, but the difference now is that we have actually suffered many dividend cuts with very little idea of what may come. Is the outlook cloudier than it was in 2007? Possibly - but we had no idea then, as the credit crunch unfolded, what would happen any more than now. Talk of a complete collapse, of the large insurance companies going down and the banking system near to panic - yet I carried on buying then, so I probably would now. Then we have the biggest collapse since 1974 with possible danger of a system collapse and the end of the world, so the scribblers told us. But others, much maligned Woodford amongst them, pointed out correctly, that this was a once in a generation opportunity.

Would I buy a lump sum HYP? In one sense I have - I have a lump sum invested, and I'm not selling it!

However, however in the meaning of the term, would I start one now by investing a lump sum: no, I wouldn't. I'd do what I did in 2006-2010 - invest in tranches over a longish period, say, a year or two depending on one's cheerfulness and attitude to risk. I took four years to be fully invested because I was feeling my way with HYP as well as testing the market. Had I not been feeling my way and transferring money from a couple of dozen or so OEICS with different investment ideas, I would have fully invested sooner.

As for what shares I'd buy: I'd use the normal HYP method that I was "brought up with", ignoring any complete cutters - which would not get through the safety factors anyway. Each month or two, I'd run the same exercise, just as I did back then.


Arb.

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#326982

Postby idpickering » July 18th, 2020, 8:44 am

I agree with the gist of Arb’s post above. However I think you could probably start a lump sum HYP now, but it’d be different and difficult for sure. For me, I’m happy to keep drip feeding my cash into my HYP on a monthly basis.

Ian.

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#326993

Postby Arborbridge » July 18th, 2020, 9:36 am

I'm intending to have a stab at a "HYP now" list to publish for discussion later, unless someone beats me to it. That is quite likely because I will be out most of the day enjoying the sun, then MrsArb is making noises about a barbeque tonight. Last time we tried, it brought the rain on early!

Arb.

Gengulphus
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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#326996

Postby Gengulphus » July 18th, 2020, 9:54 am

Arborbridge wrote:However, however in the meaning of the term, would I start one now by investing a lump sum: no, I wouldn't. I'd do what I did in 2006-2010 - invest in tranches over a longish period, say, a year or two depending on one's cheerfulness and attitude to risk. I took four years to be fully invested because I was feeling my way with HYP as well as testing the market. Had I not been feeling my way and transferring money from a couple of dozen or so OEICS with different investment ideas, I would have fully invested sooner.

As for what shares I'd buy: I'd use the normal HYP method that I was "brought up with", ignoring any complete cutters - which would not get through the safety factors anyway. Each month or two, I'd run the same exercise, just as I did back then.

idpickering wrote:... However I think you could probably start a lump sum HYP now, but it’d be different and difficult for sure. ...

To be clear, I'm not asking whether it is practical to maintain an existing HYP now or whether it is advisable to construct any sort of HYP (the latter is definitely a topic for HYS&S, not this board), but whether it is practical to construct a HYP (with the word "construct" implying that it's a new HYP, not an already-constructed one!).

The quote from Luniversal in my OP indicates that he doubts it is possible without doing "violence" to HYP guidelines, but also indicates that (unlike this board's HYP guidelines) his own HYP guidelines require a HYP to be constructed with a single lump sum. Arb's quote above indicates that he thinks it is practical to construct a HYP in tranches over a few years and might implicitly express doubts about it being practical to construct a lump-sum-invested-all-at-once HYP (he explicitly indicates that he thinks it inadvisable, but that's not the same question), and Ian's quote above indicates a similar view about the latter.

I think there's a general consensus there that constructing a lump-sum-invested-all-at-once HYP is at least difficult at present, and is more difficult than constructing one over a significant amount of time (and that's my impression as well). But is it practical at all, and if so, how would you go about it?

Arborbridge wrote:I'm intending to have a stab at a "HYP now" list to publish for discussion later, unless someone beats me to it. That is quite likely because I will be out most of the day enjoying the sun, then MrsArb is making noises about a barbeque tonight. Last time we tried, it brought the rain on early!

Such lists are precisely the sort of answer I'm looking for, and please don't let others beating you to it stop you posting yours - a variety of answers showing different approaches (within the board guidelines, of course) is IMHO what makes a good discussion!

Gengulphus

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327008

Postby moorfield » July 18th, 2020, 10:26 am

I think the answer is "No".

Arborbridge wrote:I'm intending to have a stab at a "HYP now" list to publish for discussion later, unless someone beats me to it. That is quite likely because I will be out most of the day enjoying the sun, then MrsArb is making noises about a barbeque tonight. Last time we tried, it brought the rain on early!

Arb.


... tried a BBQ, or constructing an HYP?

There was a recent attempt at/discussion of building an HYP here ("Buying CTY"), which was inconclusive, but with some decent analysis by Wizard.

When the new rules were redrafted I asked (twice) the mods here ("HYP Practical - Some Changes"), for the avoidance of doubt and some illustration of the rules. None forthcoming, which I took as a "No". (*)

(*) I may be wrong on this as I haven't re-read the whole thread, nor do I have time to. If the mods did, and can link to the appropriate post, my apologies.

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327016

Postby dealtn » July 18th, 2020, 11:03 am

Arborbridge wrote:As for what shares I'd buy: I'd use the normal HYP method that I was "brought up with", ignoring any complete cutters - which would not get through the safety factors anyway. Each month or two, I'd run the same exercise, just as I did back then.




The question refers to "currently practical". I don't know the exact rules of the system, and they may well have changed in the many years since they were first proposed and followed, but I suspect the list of qualifying shares ie. currently high yield, not having cut for 5 years (or whatever it actually is )etc. is now too small to have a diversified 15+ share portfolio that would be considered a HYP.

It would be refreshing to see what shares meet the criteria, and could highlight a number of shares say in the FTSE 250 that wouldn't ordinarily have been in past "traditional" HYPs.

Another suspicion I would have is that there will be too much dependence on what people refer to as "yield" with historic yields and forecast yields having a greater than usual variance.

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327018

Postby Dod101 » July 18th, 2020, 11:08 am

Anglo American
AstraZeneca
BHP
BP
BAT
Diageo
Glaxo
Imperial Brands (for now)
Legal & General
National Grid
Pennon
Phoenix
Reckitt Beckiser
Schroders
Segro
SSE
SLA
Tesco
Unilever
United Utilities
Vodafone

The above was my list of FTSE100 shares that are still paying a dividend and not only that, had not cut or suspended their dividend when I posted anyway. From that list it would be possible to construct a HYP I think. Depending on how you identify sectors I think we could find 8 or 9 different sectors and thus get more or less enough diversification. We might need to adjust our yield expectations but these companies, almost simply because they have maintain their dividend are surely the stronger ones around. As per my comment, purists would exclude Imperial Brands but might include Admiral. Tesco might be disqualified but I do not follow its progress. Even so there is still a reasonable choice.

So surely the answer to the question is 'of course'.

Dod

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327036

Postby dealtn » July 18th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Dod101 wrote:So surely the answer to the question is 'of course'.



Let's consider that list then.

AAL - No Dividend in 2016
AZN - Current Yield 2.5%
BHP - Dividend Cut 2016, Current Yield <4%
BP -
BAT - Dividend Cut 2017
DGE - Current Yield 2.5%
GSK - Dividend Cut 2016
IMB - Dividend Cut 2020
LGEN -
NG. - Dividend Cut 2018 (although that might be as a result of a 2017 Special)
PNN - Yield 4%
PHNX - Dividend Cuts in both 2016 and 2018
RB. - Yield 2.3%
SDR - Yield 3.8%
SGRO - Yield 2.3%
SSE - Dividend Cut 2020
SLA -
TSCO - No 5 year Dividend History
ULVR - Current Yield 3.2%
UU. -
VOD - Dividend Cut 2019

So I think there is some serious concerns about your "of course"!

Of course you can construct a portfolio, and it might be a great one over time for both Income and Growth, but it won't be a HYP, at least on my (and it seems this Board's) understanding.

Depending on what the rules actually are your 21 share offering might actually be just 4 shares that meet the criteria, and that is too small surely. Now there may well be others in the FTSE 250 that will bring that up to 15 or so, across sufficient sectors, to qualify as a HYP. Maybe some can suggest them and see, but on the evidence so far it seems it isn't "currently practical", or to make it so the "rules" need to change. If the latter is the only way to achieve it the question has to be how far can the rules change before it is no longer a HYP, but something else?

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Re: Is it currently practical to construct a HYP?

#327038

Postby Luniversal » July 18th, 2020, 12:14 pm

Dod101 wrote:Anglo American
AstraZeneca
BHP
BP
BAT
Diageo
Glaxo
Imperial Brands (for now)
Legal & General
National Grid
Pennon
Phoenix
Reckitt Beckiser
Schroders
Segro
SSE
SLA
Tesco
Unilever
United Utilities
Vodafone

The above was my list of FTSE100 shares that are still paying a dividend and not only that, had not cut or suspended their dividend when I posted anyway. From that list it would be possible to construct a HYP I think. Depending on how you identify sectors I think we could find 8 or 9 different sectors and thus get more or less enough diversification. We might need to adjust our yield expectations but these companies, almost simply because they have maintain their dividend are surely the stronger ones around. As per my comment, purists would exclude Imperial Brands but might include Admiral. Tesco might be disqualified but I do not follow its progress. Even so there is still a reasonable choice.

So surely the answer to the question is 'of course'.

Dod


The requirement is for a minimum of 15 sectors, not '8 or 9'; and for five years of *rising* dividends, not freezers such as Glaxo and, potentially, Standard Life Aberdeen.

Vodafone and Tesco are cutters within the time frame; Imps and BP may soon follow. SSE has 'reset' downward. Anglo and BHP dividends are subject to the pronounced cyclicalities of mining. Diageo, Reckitt, Unilever, Segro and Schroders are persistently low yielders.

What is left? Astra, BAT, Legal & General, NatGrid, Pennon, Phoenix, UU, SSE maybe. Five sectors if you treat electricity and water as different kinds of utility. Where are the other ten?

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Re: Is it currently practical to construct a HYP?

#327042

Postby PinkDalek » July 18th, 2020, 12:21 pm

Luniversal wrote:[The requirement is for a minimum of 15 sectors, not '8 or 9'; and for five years of *rising* dividends, ...


You may have missed the many discussions but I can't see what you've stated is correct for the current *NEW* HYP Practical - Group Guidelines:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=23846

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327046

Postby IanTHughes » July 18th, 2020, 12:44 pm

Oh alright, it’s the weekend, so let’s deal with the easy ones :D

Yesterday and this morning, I was updating my records for the PYAD HYP 2019_04 REINVEST portfolio last reported here: viewtopic.php?p=323792#p323792

As this exercise requires dividends to be reinvested, I rather naturally had a brief look at what might be in the frame for the next top-up, due on 10 September, when the funds should be sufficient to trigger such a top-up. The first thing I noticed was that my spreadsheet formulae has determined that none of the current constituents are currently suitable for top-up. All were rejected for one of two reasons:

- Earnings considered at risk
- Resultant Sector Value Concentration too high

The second of the above reasons is of course purely mechanical, being a limit on a Sector Value Concentration of 7.00%. However, before getting to that determination, the possible top-up must first pass the “subjective” test which, for my purposes runs off my Share Database, where of course I have recorded all those dividend cuts/suspensions in all their gory details! I further discovered that the same Share Database also rejects a number of otherwise possible new contenders for the same reason. What to do …. What to do?

Looking a bit further I discovered that, for a number of current constituents, as well as some possible new contenders, there should be some further news or account reporting before the top-up is due on 10 September. Phew, I don’t have to make a decision right now :D As an aside, when I set up this exercise, I determined that a cash balance of £2,000.00 would be required before a top-up would be triggered. When setting this amount my primary concern was to avoid more than five to seven updates per year, as well as ensuring that any new holding purchased was of a reasonable size. Now I am simply grateful that it allows me more time!

Anyway, back to the thread question: “Is it possible to purchase an HYP at the moment?”. My answer is yes …… but….!

And the “but” is the fact that one would most likely have to relax one or more of what I consider to be important selection criteria for HYP as follows:

Lower Yield - HYP is about capturing the highest yield possible so, if the highest yields do not appear to offer reliable dividends, just accept a lower yield at the outset, where the dividends do look secure.

Lower Market Capitalisation - Maybe one can find a few dividend gems in the FTSE 250, or even further down the Market Cap scale – AIM shares anyone?

Less Diversification – For example, the same number of holdings – minimum fifteen - but maybe fewer Business Sectors / Industries.

Less Dividend History – Relax the historical dividend criteria. Maybe even make an assessment as to whether those cuts and suspensions may quickly reverse and once again provide a reasonable income return.

As well as the foregoing, maybe one should suspend the following of the “Time to Invest is Now!” Many people would suggest that they would always do such and I do not want to open up a discussion on that here but, for now at least, there are a number of high-yielders that do appear to have survived better than others. Buy those six/seven/eight/nine, or whatever number, and await further developments before completing one’s selections.


In reality, I suspect that one would have to fiddle with all of those selection criteria, and maybe others too, but the result would be a selected HYP.


Ian

P.S. – with the top-up due on the virtual HYP as reported above, I have now decided to research whether to relax the Value Concentration Limit. 7%. Is rather low I believe, and maybe 10% or 12% might be more appropriate. Of course, this is only relevant for a top-up to an already well-diversified HYP, not a one-shot full portfolio purchase, the latter of which is the topic of this thread.

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327049

Postby Gengulphus » July 18th, 2020, 12:50 pm

moorfield wrote:I think the answer is "No".

Fair enough. It may not appear so now, but that's because I realised too late after posting last night to be able to do the edit myself that my original subject for the thread ("Is it currently practical to construct a HYP?" or something close) was ill-chosen for this board and not really what I was after. I reported my own post asking the moderators to edit the subject for me, and they've now done so - but I do realise that you've posted before it was done, and am posting this to clarify that "No" was a sensible answer to the question you saw. Not to the question I intended, which the subject now reflects, but I don't expect you or anyone else to have read my mind about that! ;-)

moorfield wrote:When the new rules were redrafted I asked (twice) the mods here ("HYP Practical - Some Changes"), for the avoidance of doubt and some illustration of the rules. None forthcoming, which I took as a "No". (*)

(*) I may be wrong on this as I haven't re-read the whole thread, nor do I have time to. If the mods did, and can link to the appropriate post, my apologies.

Well, that link goes to a post that asked Clariman to name posters who had not been "following the faith" - which is neither the question I originally asked here nor the one I intended, and not one I'll even try to answer because site rules tell us to "Stick to the facts and argue the points discussed, rather than criticise the poster." And I too don't have the time or inclination to go searching through a 222-post thread for any other questions you asked on it.

Gengulphus

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327059

Postby G3lc » July 18th, 2020, 1:46 pm

For all anyone knows a HYP may be a thing of the past, just like high interest rates on cash invested - so one will perhaps have to seek safe dividends if there is such a thing - or perhaps wait for a share price crash and buy the safe dividend payers and then the dividend will look high if the dividend is held.

Dod101
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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327060

Postby Dod101 » July 18th, 2020, 1:50 pm

Lower yield is something we would probably have to accept for any HYP, but some of the very low yielders (Unilever for example qualified as a HYP share at one time and so is acceptable) I would not discount SSE simply because of the dividend 'reset'. That was because they reduced the size of the business and is not a cut like say Imperial.

I would take the following (using the EPIC which I do not like doing)

AZN
DGE
LGEN
PNN
RB
SDR
SSE
ULVR
UU
BP
PHNX
BAT

I do not think BAT cut in 2017. They changed to quarterly dividends. I think that is all.
PHNX did not cut their dividend. The dividend per share reduced as a result of their diluting existing holders as a result of the Standard Life deal.
I would add Admiral. They only cut their Special
No-one could afford to ignore the miners these days.
There are low yielders there but I guess if you take the FTSE100 true yield today it would not be very high. That would be our 12/15 shares and I could find a few from the FTSE250. The 'H' in HYP is relative. In fact of course I would jut use my existing portfolio which has a few ITs in it as well. For the purist, I admit he/she would be struggling to get a decent highish yield today and maybe even find 15 shares with the sectorial diversification required.

PS I suspect that G3lc is right.

Dod

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327075

Postby seagles » July 18th, 2020, 3:42 pm

Dod101 wrote:Lower yield is something we would probably have to accept for any HYP, but some of the very low yielders (Unilever for example qualified as a HYP share at one time and so is acceptable) I would not discount SSE simply because of the dividend 'reset'. That was because they reduced the size of the business and is not a cut like say Imperial.

I would take the following (using the EPIC which I do not like doing)

AZN
DGE
LGEN
PNN
RB
SDR
SSE
ULVR
UU
BP
PHNX
BAT

I do not think BAT cut in 2017. They changed to quarterly dividends. I think that is all.
PHNX did not cut their dividend. The dividend per share reduced as a result of their diluting existing holders as a result of the Standard Life deal.
I would add Admiral. They only cut their Special
No-one could afford to ignore the miners these days.
There are low yielders there but I guess if you take the FTSE100 true yield today it would not be very high. That would be our 12/15 shares and I could find a few from the FTSE250. The 'H' in HYP is relative. In fact of course I would jut use my existing portfolio which has a few ITs in it as well. For the purist, I admit he/she would be struggling to get a decent highish yield today and maybe even find 15 shares with the sectorial diversification required.

PS I suspect that G3lc is right.

Dod


Low yielders may be acceptable on this forum for discussion but they do not meet criteria for "buying new" into a HYP. They meet criteria for top-up discussions though. Maybe the yield criteria may need revising downward but then it would not be a HYP as yield needs to be above FTSE100 when initially brought. I am sure you have read the "new" guidelines and understand the difference between buying new into a HYP and top-up. ITs are unacceptable for discussion and inclusion on this board.

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327080

Postby Dod101 » July 18th, 2020, 4:05 pm

I know, seagles, which is why I have not mentioned any ITs. Anyway, you need to define low yielders in today's climate. Currently who knows what the FTSE100 yield actually is? Today's FT tells us it is 4.72% but I do not believe that that is accurate. The same newspaper tells us that Imperial Brand's yield is 14.55% which is clearly nonsense and HSBC at 6.32%. No wonder it has the FTSE100 yield at 4.72%. It is clearly meaningless.

I suspect that it would not be possible if sticking to the strict guidelines for a HYP to find 15 shares in different sectors, even without thinking of the minimum yield requirement but my previous post outlined what I would do if given the task.

Dod

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327085

Postby Breelander » July 18th, 2020, 4:16 pm

Dod101 wrote: Currently who knows what the FTSE100 yield actually is? Today's FT tells us it is 4.72% but I do not believe that that is accurate....


It's 'accurate' in the respect that it is quoting the trailing twelve months yield. But it won't reflect the 'new normal' position until all the 'pre-covid' dividends have dropped out of the TTM calculations. We'll have to wait until early 2021 to see that...

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327101

Postby Gengulphus » July 18th, 2020, 4:49 pm

seagles wrote:Low yielders may be acceptable on this forum for discussion but they do not meet criteria for "buying new" into a HYP. They meet criteria for top-up discussions though. Maybe the yield criteria may need revising downward but then it would not be a HYP as yield needs to be above FTSE100 when initially brought. I am sure you have read the "new" guidelines and understand the difference between buying new into a HYP and top-up. ...

Agreed, but I'm going to apply a bit of leeway about just what the FTSE100 yield currently is. My reason is that https://dividenddata.co.uk/dividendyiel ... et=ftse100 tells me that it's currently 4.03%, while https://markets.ft.com/data/indices/tea ... =UKX.D:FSI tells me that it's currently 4.72%. They (or their sources) pretty obviously must be using different methods of calculating the FTSE100 yield... I'm not going to spend time trying to work out what those methods are or which I think is correct - I'm just going to draw the conclusion that if reputable sources can differ that much, there's clearly pretty wide scope for getting different answers!

FWIW, I suspect the difference lies in the fact that just what the FTSE100 shares' historical dividends are currently depends heavily on whether you use the 'total for last company financial year' or the rolling 'dividends for last 365/366 days' version and on whether you treat as dividend as occurring on the day it's announced, the day it goes ex-dividend or the day it's paid. Add in the fact that what a HYP purchaser is actually interested in is what the dividends will be after purchase rather than what they were before purchase, and one might easily regard the FTSE100 yield as being significantly less than either 4.03% or 4.76%.

Note I'm not saying what the moderators will consider to be the FTSE100 yield - just that I'm personally going to give the benefit of the doubt to shares with somewhat lower yields than 4.03%, by not reporting suggestions of such shares unless their yields are so much lower that I don't think there's any plausible case to be made for their yields being over the FTSE100's.

seagles wrote:... ITs are unacceptable for discussion and inclusion on this board.

The guidelines say that HYP shares should "Not be shares in investment companies or investment trusts which are largely invested in quoted equities. REITs and REIT-like investment companies (e.g. infrastructure companies) are perfectly acceptable." That isn't a blanket prohibition of ITs, nor blanket approval of non-IT investment companies - a good thing IMHO for those of us (including me) who have never got to grips with the technicalities of whether an investment company is an IT!

Gengulphus

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Re: How might one currently construct a HYP in practice?

#327106

Postby Dod101 » July 18th, 2020, 4:59 pm

Breelander wrote:
Dod101 wrote: Currently who knows what the FTSE100 yield actually is? Today's FT tells us it is 4.72% but I do not believe that that is accurate....


It's 'accurate' in the respect that it is quoting the trailing twelve months yield. But it won't reflect the 'new normal' position until all the 'pre-covid' dividends have dropped out of the TTM calculations. We'll have to wait until early 2021 to see that...


Thanks. I had not really thought of that. That calculation makes the yields quoted very meaningless for anyone trying to chose shares on the basis of yield, although if they avoid all shares which have suspended or cut their dividends, which of course would not be in contention anyway for a HYP. It certainly means that the published yield of the FTSE100 is meaningless and it is probably well under 4% now. I am inclined to think that any share which has not cut or suspended its dividend is currently quite good enough for my income portfolio.

Dod


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