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Income recovery expectations

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Gengulphus
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Re: Income recovery expectations

#424448

Postby Gengulphus » July 3rd, 2021, 2:33 pm

moorfield wrote:HYP1 of course holds GSK which contributed ~5% of its overall income last year. The full effect of the split won't become apparent there until November 2023. I cannot see HYP1 income returning to its heady days of 2018-19 any time soon though, with or without GSK and it's spawn.

Care to put a figure on "any time soon", such as "within the next five years"?

Without such a figure, if and when HYP1 income does return to its pre-pandemic level, it's rather too easy to argue that you were right on the grounds that the time it took wasn't "any time soon"...

And while you're about it, it could also help avoid future disputes to say whether the return to pre-pandemic levels you're talking about is a return to the income's nominal level or its real inflation-adjusted level, and if the latter, which inflation measure you're adjusting by.

Gengulphus
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moorfield
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Re: Income recovery expectations

#424491

Postby moorfield » July 3rd, 2021, 5:01 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
moorfield wrote:HYP1 of course holds GSK which contributed ~5% of its overall income last year. The full effect of the split won't become apparent there until November 2023. I cannot see HYP1 income returning to its heady days of 2018-19 any time soon though, with or without GSK and it's spawn.

Care to put a figure on "any time soon", such as "within the next five years"?

Without such a figure, if and when HYP1 income does return to its pre-pandemic level, it's rather too easy to argue that you were right on the grounds that the time it took wasn't "any time soon"...

And while you're about it, it could also help avoid future disputes to say whether the return to pre-pandemic levels you're talking about is a return to the income's nominal level or its real inflation-adjusted level, and if the latter, which inflation measure you're adjusting by.

Gengulphus


I already have done, here

Gengulphus
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Re: Income recovery expectations

#424674

Postby Gengulphus » July 4th, 2021, 1:25 pm

moorfield wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:
moorfield wrote:HYP1 of course holds GSK which contributed ~5% of its overall income last year. The full effect of the split won't become apparent there until November 2023. I cannot see HYP1 income returning to its heady days of 2018-19 any time soon though, with or without GSK and it's spawn.

Care to put a figure on "any time soon", such as "within the next five years"?

Without such a figure, if and when HYP1 income does return to its pre-pandemic level, it's rather too easy to argue that you were right on the grounds that the time it took wasn't "any time soon"...

And while you're about it, it could also help avoid future disputes to say whether the return to pre-pandemic levels you're talking about is a return to the income's nominal level or its real inflation-adjusted level, and if the latter, which inflation measure you're adjusting by.

I already have done, here

Thanks - so your "any time soon" means "within the next 4-5 years", at least for income returning to its previous nominal level.

For income returning to its previous real level, the following table says that HYP1 came close to returning to its 2008 level in 2013 (though whether it quite did so depends on whether one uses RPI or CPI as the inflation measure), but then fell back noticeably in 2014 and returned again from 2015 onwards (convincingly for CPI, unconvincingly until 2017 for RPI). So it seems to me that what your "any time soon" means for a return to the same real level of income is rather less clear, but plausibly something like "within the next 6-7 years".


Gengulphus

Arborbridge
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Re: Income recovery expectations

#424876

Postby Arborbridge » July 5th, 2021, 9:10 am

So it seems to me that what your "any time soon" means for a return to the same real level of income is rather less clear, but plausibly something like "within the next 6-7 years".


That sounds similar to what happened after the 2007-8 problem. It seems consistent with what many of us were planning for, but hoping against 8-)

Arb.

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Re: Income recovery expectations

#424898

Postby moorfield » July 5th, 2021, 10:08 am

Arborbridge wrote:
So it seems to me that what your "any time soon" means for a return to the same real level of income is rather less clear, but plausibly something like "within the next 6-7 years".


That sounds similar to what happened after the 2007-8 problem. It seems consistent with what many of us were planning for, but hoping against 8-)

Arb.


Past performance is no guarantee of course, but if I were Doris or SB I would now be tightening my spending budget for the next 6-7 years.

Interestingly, had I been reinvesting HYP1 dividends a la Gengulphus it would now be producing nearly the income I would have extrapolated from the start 20 years ago.

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Re: Income recovery expectations

#424940

Postby 88V8 » July 5th, 2021, 12:33 pm

One could view it both ways... how well a minimal 15-share portfolio has held up through these troubled times... or what can you expect from a portfolio of just 15 shares.

And GSK coming down the tracks.

So, did Doris retire age 60... I suppose back then it would have been 65. It might see her out.

V8

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Re: Income recovery expectations

#425045

Postby tjh290633 » July 5th, 2021, 6:29 pm

88V8 wrote:So, did Doris retire age 60... I suppose back then it would have been 65. It might see her out.

V8

I think not. It would have been 60 up to the turn of the century and later.

TJH (Retired at 65 in 1998)

Gengulphus
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Re: Income recovery expectations

#427763

Postby Gengulphus » July 14th, 2021, 10:35 pm

moorfield wrote:Interestingly, had I been reinvesting HYP1 dividends a la Gengulphus it would now be producing nearly the income I would have extrapolated from the start 20 years ago.

I've only just seen this (the discussion dropped off my reading list for reasons I understand but won't describe here), but now that I have seen it, I have to say that I feel that the wording of that link somewhat distorts what I said in it. I don't for a moment think the distortion was intentional, but do feel a bit of clarification is needed...

The problem is that the natural reading of "reinvesting ... a la Gengulphus" is "reinvesting ... as Gengulphus would do it". But if you look at the link, it contains a table which is the same as one in an earlier post of mine, and I started that post with:

Gengulphus wrote:It is of course impossible to answer the question of how HYP1 would have grown with dividend reinvestment without knowing which shares it would have reinvested the income in, and that raises the hindsight issue - how on earth can we fairly decide which shares it would have picked now that we know so much about which shares did well and which didn't? That issue is IMHO essentially unsolvable.

And the question of how it might have grown with dividend reinvestment has a large variety of answers, depending on the reinvestment method one chooses - and most methods involve getting hold of a large amount of past data and exercising some human judgement about it (which inevitably raises the hindsight issue again). But there is one reinvestment method whose results can be worked out with only limited data about the portfolio as a whole, which I'll call the "more of the same" method: just buy all of the shares already in the portfolio in proportion to the existing holdings. It's not by any means a HYP reinvestment method I would recommend: it's liable to reinvest parts of the dividend income in non-high-yielding shares (either because they've cut their dividends or because their share price growth has outstripped their dividend growth), it's liable to make purchases of the HYP's smaller holdings that are too small to be cost-effective, and it does nothing to restore lost diversification. But it does have the advantage that it can be worked out for a non-reinvesting HYP like HYP1 long after the event and with no risk of using hindsight knowledge.

I.e. it's not reinvestment as I would do it! Instead, it was just a basis on which one could calculate a ballpark figure for what HYP1's income might have grown to with reinvestment, without the danger of the calculation being influenced by hindsight.

Gengulphus


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