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Cash buffer

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UnclePhilip
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Cash buffer

#441439

Postby UnclePhilip » September 11th, 2021, 12:25 pm

I'm not at all sure if this is 'on topic' or this is the appropriate board; if not I'd be grateful to be directed to the right board.

Keeping enough money not invested in shares, so as to be able to have enough to last for say 3-4 years if dividends drop significantly and you'd not want to risk having to sell shares after a major market fall, seems sensible.

However, I do this with a simple savings account, and was told off recently for not using bonds for this instead.

As I've no idea about bonds for this purpose, I'd be grateful for advice, experiences etc to help me understand more....

Uncle

Moderator Message:
"Bonds" can have many meanings -- investment bonds, savings bonds, Premium Bonds, and of course corporate bonds. I read this post and thought "corporate bonds", but other posters have interpreted it differently. So any sort of bond is on-topic, and of course the whole subject is on-topic for this board, as a very practical aspect of HYPing. --MDW1954

pje16
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Re: Cash buffer

#441442

Postby pje16 » September 11th, 2021, 12:35 pm

Who told you off about bonds?
I don't see what the attraction is, paying around 0.5 % for instant adcess
As a general rule of thumb 3-6 months spending is ideal to have in reserve (if affordable) in case of a disaster
I can do that and the fact that interest is the square root of FA, while not ideal, is how things are these days and I am heavily invested enough in my pension and equiies (for me) so that does not make a massive difference

Darka
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Re: Cash buffer

#441446

Postby Darka » September 11th, 2021, 12:59 pm

The size of the buffer depends (in my view) on whether you are retired or not.

If not, then maybe 6 months is fine but when I retire (end of October) I want at least 2 years worth of reserve, most of this will be in premium bonds initially.

I will probably start with 3 years reserve, then wind it down to 2 years over the next couple of years if 2 looks enough.

kempiejon
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Re: Cash buffer

#441450

Postby kempiejon » September 11th, 2021, 1:09 pm

I'm probably misremembering but in the olden days I just looked at portfolio construction, safety factors, diversification etc but in this new era lemons expand much more on the practicalities of being dependent on lumpy dividend income. I reckon I'll aim for about 3 years of budgeted spending as my base line in premium bonds, current accounts and regular savers. and a buffer in a feeder account of a few months spending topped up by regularly paying away dividends or selling unsheltered holdings.

SO will be working for quite a few years after I jack it in so that'll help if disaster strikes early on in our journey.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Cash buffer

#441455

Postby Itsallaguess » September 11th, 2021, 1:24 pm

I'm with Darka on this one, and am currently aiming for around three-years worth of cash reserves, a large chuck of which will be held in Premium Bonds.

Given that the world would have to be falling in for dividends to dry up completely at all, never mind for three full years, and given that in the particular market-driven circumstances that might require me to draw on them, I'd most probably look to be cutting down what would normally be a 'normal year' worth of expenses anyway (thanks for the dry-run COVID!), then I fully expect both of those factors to mean that in reality there would be a much larger buffer than the three-normal-years set up initially anyway...

I also personally plan to wind some of that back later on, once my work-based pension might kick in and also later again when state-pension becomes available, so I think this is one of those very personal situations, but I really can't imagine any circumstance where I'd want to be without at least 18 months of normal expenses still being easily and quickly available for use in emergencies.

Regarding cash or bonds, I'm happy to stick with aiming for cash or near-cash equivalent at the moment, and with a large proportion planned to be sat in Premium Bonds, then that will normally offer some level of return at least, rather than being stuffed under the mattress, and to be honest, I quite look forward to the start of a new month when the draw is made, and for me it adds to those regular drum-beats of life that we get used to over the years...

I'm quite prepared to be flexible on the above though, as I move towards any firmer retirement date, and the plan as it stands is constantly under review as things move forward, so I've no personal reason 'not' to look at bonds for this capital allocation - it's just that the current plan feels just about good enough without having to go there at this particular stage..

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Alaric
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Re: Cash buffer

#441456

Postby Alaric » September 11th, 2021, 1:26 pm

UnclePhilip wrote:However, I do this with a simple savings account, and was told off recently for not using bonds for this instead.

As I've no idea about bonds for this purpose, I'd be grateful for advice, experiences etc to help me understand more....


The term "bond" can have a number of meanings. Perhaps the critic of the use of a savings account might clarify what they meant. Corporate Bonds are an alternative asset class where instead of subscribing to Company shares and expecting a dividend, someone has lent the money instead in return for a fixed return and a payback at a known future date. LIke shares, you buy and sell on a secondary market. When the payback date is within a few years, they can act as a cash alternative. Avoiding the risk of individual companies by investing in Corporate Bond OEICs or ETFs may be an equivalent approach. It's more risky than cash, but can give an appreciably higher return.

Insurance companies describe some of their products as bonds, as do institutions offering fixed rate cash deposits. Premium Bonds as well, which have already been mentioned.

There's a board that discusses Gilts and Bonds
viewforum.php?f=52

Dod101
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Re: Cash buffer

#441457

Postby Dod101 » September 11th, 2021, 1:32 pm

I have always held about three year's spending in N S & I index Linkers (in these days they were available) I have been retired for 25 years and have never touched them. It is nice to have them in the background though and as they are or less keep pace with purchasing power I look at them as asset allocation rather than as a financial reserve since clearly I do not them for that purpose. If I was starting out today I would want a cash reserve but by almost any measure three year's spending is unnecessary. I think that IAAG's 18 months of reserves is probably sufficient.

I am dependent on my investment income for living expenses; I have no pension other than the State pension but I cannot envision a situation where my income from investments was wiped out. Even in 2020, mine only dropped by about 20%, and much of that had more to do with Shell and Imperial Brands cutting their dividend than Covid. Nevertheless, cuts happen. This year is shaping up to be much better but I doubt that I will fully restore the dividend level to where it was in 2019 in one year.

Dod

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Re: Cash buffer

#441458

Postby scrumpyjack » September 11th, 2021, 1:33 pm

The only 'Bonds' I hold as part of my cash buffer are Premium Bonds, which on average return about 1% now, which is tax free. Hard to find a savings account that beats that, at least if you are a higher rate taxpayer.

Personally I wouldn't bother with bonds as interest rates are so derisory and there will be transaction costs buying/selling, plus the risk of loss if interest rates go up, which seems likely to me.

Perhaps it is a personal prejudice but I have always suspected that Insurance Company 'Bonds' are just an excuse to charge lots of hidden fees for a 'product' and I have always avoided them like the plague.

I settle for Goldman Sachs Marcus which pays 0.5% with immediate access for the rest of the cash buffer.

MrFoolish
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Re: Cash buffer

#441467

Postby MrFoolish » September 11th, 2021, 1:57 pm

I've been a long term investor in corporate bonds via the ETF SLXX in my ISA. Whilst I'm no expert, it seems to have given me regular payouts and capital gain. So I'm happy with it.

tjh290633
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Re: Cash buffer

#441752

Postby tjh290633 » September 12th, 2021, 11:29 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Perhaps it is a personal prejudice but I have always suspected that Insurance Company 'Bonds' are just an excuse to charge lots of hidden fees for a 'product' and I have always avoided them like the plague.

Of course they are. They were obscure, subject to high initial fees (paid to the adviser who sold them) and very poor value for money.

TJH

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Re: Cash buffer

#441795

Postby miner1000 » September 13th, 2021, 9:20 am

Darka wrote:The size of the buffer depends (in my view) on whether you are retired or not.

If not, then maybe 6 months is fine but when I retire (end of October) I want at least 2 years worth of reserve, most of this will be in premium bonds initially.

I will probably start with 3 years reserve, then wind it down to 2 years over the next couple of years if 2 looks enough.


I have been retired for 11 years now and I think 3 years worth of cash is too much. It depends on how much income you are going to get from your HYP of course, but if you expect to approximately meet your annual needs from dividends, then I would not be putting three years of spending into low interest investments.

The past 18 months has been a great trial run for people like me. I was expecting disaster last March, but in reality, I have hardly had to touch my cash reserve, and now most shares are back paying healthy dividends and I will be able to rebuild my cash reserve back to where it was last March by the end of the year.

So unless anyone thinks we are going to get a shock to the markets worse than Covid during their lifetimes, I think one year of cash reserves is more than sufficient. Just my view of course. Others may be more cautious.

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Re: Cash buffer

#441832

Postby Darka » September 13th, 2021, 11:11 am

miner1000 wrote:
Darka wrote:The size of the buffer depends (in my view) on whether you are retired or not.

If not, then maybe 6 months is fine but when I retire (end of October) I want at least 2 years worth of reserve, most of this will be in premium bonds initially.

I will probably start with 3 years reserve, then wind it down to 2 years over the next couple of years if 2 looks enough.


I have been retired for 11 years now and I think 3 years worth of cash is too much. It depends on how much income you are going to get from your HYP of course, but if you expect to approximately meet your annual needs from dividends, then I would not be putting three years of spending into low interest investments.

The past 18 months has been a great trial run for people like me. I was expecting disaster last March, but in reality, I have hardly had to touch my cash reserve, and now most shares are back paying healthy dividends and I will be able to rebuild my cash reserve back to where it was last March by the end of the year.

So unless anyone thinks we are going to get a shock to the markets worse than Covid during their lifetimes, I think one year of cash reserves is more than sufficient. Just my view of course. Others may be more cautious.


I do agree and think that 2 will be ok.

The 3rd year of my reserve is basically for a new kitchen/bathroom and some other decorating so will likely get used up over the next year or so, leave us with around 2 years worth.

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Re: Cash buffer

#442099

Postby Gengulphus » September 14th, 2021, 11:43 am

UnclePhilip wrote:I'm not at all sure if this is 'on topic' or this is the appropriate board; if not I'd be grateful to be directed to the right board.

Keeping enough money not invested in shares, so as to be able to have enough to last for say 3-4 years if dividends drop significantly and you'd not want to risk having to sell shares after a major market fall, seems sensible.

However, I do this with a simple savings account, and was told off recently for not using bonds for this instead.

As I've no idea about bonds for this purpose, I'd be grateful for advice, experiences etc to help me understand more....

On a terminology point, I would actually describe what you're calling a "cash buffer" as a "cash reserve". Both cash buffers and cash reserves exist, and they might be combined in a single cash account, but they serve somewhat different purposes. A cash buffer is there to smooth out reasonably predictable variations in cash receipts, such as the seasonal variations in dividend payments - in particular, with most of the large companies that HYPs invest in having financial years that end on December 31st or March 31st, and with many of them concentrating their dividend payout on their final dividends and paying those final dividends around 4-7 months after the ends of their financial years, there is a strong tendency for HYPers to receive very noticeably larger dividend payments in late spring, summer and early autumn than in the other half of the year. So a HYPer who is living off their HYP income and whose outgoings are fairly evenly distributed through the year is likely to want to be saving up their higher income during the summer months when dividends are plentiful in order to be able to draw on it during the leaner winter months. This is easily done with a cash account into which one pays all the HYP's dividends, and from which one makes a regular payment (probably monthly) of the averaged-out-over-a-year amount to one's current account. (There are details to be got right about that, such as making certain the cash buffer account doesn't go overdrawn even at its lowest point of the year, using the actual payment pattern of one's own HYP's companies, not the above generalisations about summer vs winter, and that it's a good idea to make the regular payments somewhat less than the averaged-out-over-a-year amount because a buffer account whose balance drifts upwards over the years produces fewer, less urgent problems that one whose balance drifts downwards and eventually goes overdrawn. But the above description is the essence of a cash buffer.)

All in all, therefore, a cash buffer is something which is expected to be used, in a pretty predictable way. Also, even if a HYP had the theoretically-possible (but never occurring in practice) payment pattern of all of its companies paying just one dividend per year and them all paying on the same date, the maximum size of cash buffer it would require is no more than a year's worth of the HYP's income; in practice, I think a couple of months' worth of the HYP's income is likely to be easily enough for the vast majority of HYPs.

On the other hand, a cash reserve is there to safeguard the HYPer's income against hard-to-predict events, such as the bouts of dividend-cutting that strike particular sectors from time to time (e.g. the dividend cuts by miners around the end of 2015 and 2016), or even companies pretty much across the entire economy occasionally (the financial crisis at the end of the 2000s and the recent Covid crisis are the two examples so far this century). Because of the unpredictability of those events, it's not possible to do financial planning for it in anything like the same way as it is for a cash buffer.

The point of making that distinction between cash buffers and cash reserves is that because of the differences in when they're needed, the HYPer's investment requirements are pretty different for the two. The cash buffer will fairly constantly be getting relatively small amounts added to it and withdrawn from it: the HYPer's requirements for it are primarily for those additions and withdrawals to happen smoothly and as far as possible free of risks and costs, while investment returns are relatively unimportant because they're going to be tiny at best. Basically, a bank account that has no charges if kept in credit and pays no interest does the job very well - perhaps even better than one that pays ludicrously low interest rates like 0.05% if one has tax returns to fill in and values the simplicity of not having the additional income source more than a pound or two of extra income. (Indeed, one can use one's current account for the job, though that does have the disadvantage of missing out on the 'budgeting' aspect of the regular monthly transfer to one's current account. Or one can use the cash balance of one's broker account for the job, provided one takes care not to regard all of that cash balance as 'available for investment'.)

On the other hand, the HYPer's requirements for a cash reserve are for it to be there, and there as completely as possible, even during a major economic crisis, because that's precisely when it's most likely to be needed! It should also be accessible quickly if and when it's needed: investments which mature years in the future and either allow no access before maturity or charge high early-withdrawal penalties are not suitable. (Unless one can set up a 'ladder' of such investments, such that there is always one that is maturing in the near future and taking cash out of them as they mature will be enough to do the income reserve's job of supplying the HYP's missing dividend income. Such arrangements are possible, but in the normal situation of not needing to draw on the income reserve, they do require the HYPer to be constantly finding the next 'rung' in the ladder to reinvest maturity proceeds in - HYPers who regard companies occasionally being taken over or returning cash that needs reinvesting by other corporate actions as a not-very-welcome chore aren't likely to like that!)

Another factor is that because the cash reserve is likely to be left untouched for many years at a time, and it may well be a relatively large amount (maybe 1-3 years of income needs compared with 1-3 months), getting a decent investment return on it is a lot more desirable than for the cash buffer.

A small amount of a HYPer's cash reserve - say the first month's worth - has to be accessible quite quickly. That rapid-access requirement and its relatively small amount means that it has pretty similar requirements to the cash buffer, and I'd be inclined to simply add it to one's cash buffer arrangements - e.g. set up the cash buffer account on the basis that its lowest balance during the year should be more than a month of income needs, rather than just positive.

For the rest of the HYPer's cash reserve, which will probably be the vast bulk of it, my assessment of various types of bonds' suitability for the job is:

* Premium Bonds: excellent access, very high chance of their full value being obtained, investment returns very low on average, no worse than zero, and highly variable. IMHO pretty hard to beat for say the next 11 months' worth of the cash reserve (after the first month's worth literally being in cash as mentioned above), beyond that, still a decent candidate but their low investment returns are becoming a more significant factor as the amount put into them increases. Note that although withdrawals are supposed to take considerably under a month, I'm allowing for a month because both the HYPer and NS&I might not manage to be quick as usual in the early stages of an economic crisis.

* Government bonds (gilts): access varies according to when it's wanted - if on maturity, excellent, with a very high chance of their nominal value being obtained (though whether that's the full value one paid for them depends on what one paid for them!); if before maturity, very good (but a bit less than excellent because it depends on the markets being open for business as usual), but a chance of not obtaining full nominal value. Short-dated gilts will probably obtain at least close to full value, as their market price will be dominated by their payment of nominal value on maturity; long-dated gilts may well show a large shortfall depending on future interest rate expectations. Note that it's how long-dated they are when the HYPer might need to draw down their part of the cash reserve than counts: if other parts of one's cash reserve can be expected to keep one going for the next three years, then a gilt with 3 years to go to maturity can be counted as a gilt held to maturity in one's cash reserve calculations, and one with 5 years to go can be counted as one that will (potentially) be sold with just 2 years to go. Judging the potential investment returns is not easy, and I'm not by any means the person to tell you how to do it, but on general principles I'd expect them to be a bit better than those for Premium Bonds. So IMHO a potential candidate for the later years of the potential use of one's cash reserve, for the HYPer who is willing to spend some time learning how to invest in them and (since they're investments that mature) to maintain a 'ladder' of them - see my comments on that above.

* Corporate bonds: there's IMHO far too high a chance of the companies that issue them getting into financial trouble (either real or perceived) in a crisis, so that if one uses them as part of one's income reserve, there's too high a chance of them not being there when wanted. Not saying anything against investing in them in general - I know too little about that - but they do seem a pretty bad mismatch to the job of an income reserve to me.

* Investment bonds from insurance companies: pretty much like corporate bonds - too high a chance of them not being there when wanted. Especially given the insurance companies use of 'Market Value Adjustments' to say in effect "You know those returns we're indicating - well, we don't really mean them in the event of a crisis...".

On the subject of how much of a cash reserve I would want, there are at least a couple of points I would take into account. The first is how big a financial disaster to plan to be able to be able to survive. The correct answer to that is not "any disaster, however big", for the simple reason that no financial plan is proof against a sufficiently major combination of income-generating investments ceasing to generate income, annuity providers going bust, cash savings being destroyed by hyperinflation, government schemes collapsing under the strain, etc. You may want (and probably do) to be able to survive any financial disaster, however great, but it's not a realistic financial planning aim.

So basically, I would 'stress test' a cash reserve by imagining a really challenging pattern of dividend cuts, probably one which is worse than both the financial crisis of about a dozen years ago and the Covid crisis as we've seen it so far but not hugely worse than them, and seeing how big a cash reserve you would need to get through it. For example, dividends cut overall by 60% in year 1 (I think the worst I've seen reported is TJH's ~50% in the financial crisis), no recovery in year 2 (I think recovery was observed in year 2 of the financial crisis, and some has been in year 2 of the Covid crisis), then recovery to 50% down, 40% down, 30% down, 20% down and 10% down in years 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 respectively (which I think is quite a bit slower than the recovery from the financial crisis - we haven't of course seen any of those years yet for the Covid crisis) before finally getting on track again in year 8.

Then project the use of the cash reserve forward through such a crisis. A very simple projection of that cash reserve through such a crisis, assuming that your HYP starts off only just providing your income needs, says that you've used 0.6 years' worth of the cash reserve after year 1 to replace the missing dividends, 0.6+0.6 = 1.2 years' worth of it after year 2, 0.6+0.6+0.5 = 1.7 years' worth of it after year 3, etc, up to 0.6+0.6+0.5+0.4+0.3+0.2+0.1 = 2.7 years' worth of it after year 7, when subsequent income is on track and the cash reserve stops draining away. If you started with 3 years' worth of cash reserve, you'll be OK but left feeling that it was quite a close-run thing! And there is the issue that although the cash reserve has stopped draining away, it's not replenishing. So you're left rather vulnerable to the next crisis... Of course, it might happen that the HYP starts performing better than planned and starts replenishing the cash reserve, but any such outperformance is probably not going to be as spectacular as the crisis underperformance, so even if it does happen, you're likely to be left vulnerable to the next crisis for quite a lot of years.

That brings me on to my second point, which is that it's a very good idea not just to have a cash reserve, but also an income safety margin: an excess of the HYP's income over the income you need. That improves the situation in several respects - for example, suppose you start with a 10% safety margin, i.e. each year, the HYP delivers 1.1 times your income needs. Then that same 'stress test' pattern of dividend cuts delivers 0.44, 0.44, 0.55, 0.66, 0.77, 0.88 and 0.99 times your income needs in years 1 to 7 respectively, and so it depletes the cash reserve by 0.56 years of your income needs by the end of year 1, 0.56+0.56 = 1.12 years of them by the end of year 2, 0.56+0.56+0.45 = 1.57 years of them by the end of year 3, etc, up to 0.56+0.56+0.45+0.34+0.23+0.12+0.01 = 2.27 years of them by the end of year 7. And from year 8 onwards, the cash reserve starts replenishing at 0.10 years of income needs per year, without any need for the HYP to perform better than planned. That's not a fast replenishment rate, but it's better than nothing...

That's two benefits: one needs 2.7-2.27 = 0.43 years of income needs less in the cash reserve, and the plan allows for replenishing the cash reserve after the crisis is over. A third is that it takes more minor bursts of dividend-cutting in its stride or very nearly so: if e.g. your HYP has two companies in the same sector that between them supply 10% of the HYP's income, and that sector suffers problems that cause them to cancel their dividends in year 1, return with 60% of their previously-expected dividends in year 2, and fully return to their previously expected dividends from year 3 onwards, then without a safety margin you get 0.90 and 0.96 years of income needs in the two years of that mini-crisis, your cash reserve is depleted by 2-(0.90+0.96) = 0.14 years of income needs, and it won't be replenished unless the HYP performs better than expected. With the 10% safety margin, that becomes 0.99 and 1.056 years of income needs, and your cash reserve is barely touched in year 1 and that tiny depletion is replenished entirely in just a few months of year 2.

Those benefits do of course have a cost: all else being equal, getting a HYP that delivers 10% more income than you need requires 10% more to be invested in the HYP. As a rough back-of-the-envelope calculation, that's about 2 years of the income being supplied by the HYP, which from a position of having no safety margin means about 2 years of your income needs. So if you're starting from a position of having a HYP that just barely supplies your income needs plus a cash reserve of 3 years of your income needs, you should be able to shift to having a HYP with a 10% income safety margin, but expect your cash reserve to drop to about 1 year of income needs. That will still give you quite a lot of protection against bouts of dividend-cutting by companies, though not enough to withstand the most severe (and hopefully highly unlikely) 'stress test' bouts, and it will sail through minor bouts of dividend-cutting and have far fewer lower permanently-depleted-cash-reserve problems than the no-safety-margin, 3-year-cash-reserve alternative. Whether you feel that's a good bargain is up to you... (I personally probably would, though I might well actually prefer a 5% safety margin and a ~2-year cash reserve to both. Though in the situation of being faced with that choice, I would only retire if forced to, because spending another year building up to a 10% safety margin and a ~2-year cash reserve would be a substantial improvement on both IMHO. But all of that is of course just my personal attitude to the risks involved - others' feelings on the matter can quite legitimately differ, and probably will!)

An important wording point about the above that I would ask people to take into account before replying: it talks about income needed, not income wanted. If e.g. one has a HYP that one expects to produce £25k dividend income per year (and no other income sources, to simplify the example at the expense of its realism), and one also expects one's living expenses to be £25k per year, one might think that one has no income safety margin. But it's possible (and indeed probable IMHO) that some of those living expenses can be cut out in a crisis (and indeed it might not merely be possible but compulsory, as the examples of holidays and live entertainment in the Covid crisis show). If say £5k of those expected living expenses are ones that are wanted but can be cut out in a crisis, then one's income safety margin is the 25% excess of the £25k income over the £20k of essential living expenses.

Finally, I should say that I haven't taken various other factors into account that are likely to be significant in projecting the use of a cash reserve forward - for example, the effects of inflation. That isn't because they're unimportant, but just because they would greatly complicate this already long post. So don't treat any of the above as firm advice about how big a cash reserve to have - just as general guidance about how to go about making the decision, with you filling in extra details about what type(s) of crisis worry you.

Gengulphus

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Re: Cash buffer

#442115

Postby Arborbridge » September 14th, 2021, 12:19 pm

I based my income reserve on TJH's performance during the worst crash for a generation. This indicated that I would expect something like a 50% fall in income and seven years to restoration, very roughly. From that one can work out how much reserve would be appropriate. Figures around two or three years come out of this...

In my view, it is better to be invested than to have "dead" cash lying around, so now my reserve is around 18 months to two years, rather than more than that. I'll take the risk of extreme melt down rather than see dead money losing value.

As for suggestions if you want "near cash" but with some risk I'd suggest something like the OEIC, IP monthly income plus, which has served me well (around 9% XIRR after fees since 2009), or at one time I used ZDP's when their rates were good. No idea if there are any around now, but they worked well. I was put on to them by Lootman and they did the trick when I needed them.

Arb.

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Re: Cash buffer

#442339

Postby MrFoolish » September 14th, 2021, 9:43 pm

Gengulphus wrote:* Corporate bonds: there's IMHO far too high a chance of the companies that issue them getting into financial trouble (either real or perceived) in a crisis, so that if one uses them as part of one's income reserve, there's too high a chance of them not being there when wanted. Not saying anything against investing in them in general - I know too little about that - but they do seem a pretty bad mismatch to the job of an income reserve to me.


Are you talking about individual companies or corpoarate bond funds? Surely the risk profiles of the two are going to be very different. If I look at the total return chart for the fund SLXX, which goes back to 2004, there appears to be a lack of scary, dramatic declines. I'm not saying it can't happen though.

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Re: Cash buffer

#442437

Postby Gengulphus » September 15th, 2021, 11:38 am

MrFoolish wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:* Corporate bonds: there's IMHO far too high a chance of the companies that issue them getting into financial trouble (either real or perceived) in a crisis, so that if one uses them as part of one's income reserve, there's too high a chance of them not being there when wanted. Not saying anything against investing in them in general - I know too little about that - but they do seem a pretty bad mismatch to the job of an income reserve to me.

Are you talking about individual companies or corpoarate bond funds? Surely the risk profiles of the two are going to be very different. If I look at the total return chart for the fund SLXX, which goes back to 2004, there appears to be a lack of scary, dramatic declines. I'm not saying it can't happen though.

I answered the question UnclePhilip asked, which was about bonds. If he wants to extend his question to ask about funds (of any type, not just corporate bond funds), he can. But there's a good reason why I concentrated my reply on what a HYPer's requirements are for their cash reserve and how big they should make it, only gave my opinion briefly on various types of bonds' suitability for the job, and didn't extend my reply to other types of investment such as funds. That reason is that I know next to nothing about fund investment! In particular, my very limited attempts at it in the past have told me that judging whether a fund manager is a good one is something I find far harder than judging whether a company is a good one (not that the latter is exactly easy!), and that far too frequently, funds change their managers and waste all the work I've put into trying to judge that...

I would however suggest that UnclePhilip might do better to pick up what I and others have said about what is required from cash reserve investments and ask about specific types of investment on their dedicated boards, giving those requirements as background. For instance, I can see possibilities of using a 'ladder' of maybe 2-year or 3-year deposit accounts to provide the later years of the cash that might be required from the cash reserve while earning not-entirely-trivial interest on that part of the cash reserve, and I do have some experience of running one for my mother. But all that experience is over 5 years old, and I'm totally out of touch with the current offerings in that area. If UnclePhilip wants to explore that possibility, he'll probably do far better to ask on Bank Accounts Savings & ISAs, where he's likely to find more people who are knowledgable about such accounts, and fewer potential issues about whether the discussion is deviating too far from the board's subject!

Gengulphus

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Re: Cash buffer

#442726

Postby TahiPanasDua » September 16th, 2021, 11:22 am

Gengulphus.

Thanks. This is a most useful contribution.

I will spend some time considering the implications for my own setup which may be too simple but seems to have worked so far. Living off natural dividends may make personal finance easier to manage.

I use a single base account for payments-in. After a 90% transfer of estimated average monthly expenditure to a day to day spending account, what is left covers all you describe plus an estimated amount for anticipated unusual big outgoings, such as cars, renovations, etc but not travel and holidays. A weakness may be the lack of a separate account for big expenses. We rarely spend all our monthly allowance these days.

Another weakness is historical large cash sums in 3 banks in the UK, Jersey and Hong Kong which all made sense when we were expats but now need consolidation. Must do it!!!! The money has been slowly deflating for years! Your suggestion of Premium Bonds looks good.

Can I respectfully suggest you consider prefacing your article with an executive summary to encourage those who might be disposed to abandon such useful reading due to the length? I'm sure some readers here are predisposed to read only short articles unless you can tickle their fancy, as it were.

TP2


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