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Storage stuff

TUK020
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Re: Storage stuff

#274403

Postby TUK020 » January 1st, 2020, 11:51 am

GoSeigen wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Correct. The graphic is wrong. It is impossible to deliver 500WWh from a 200MWh storage array. You CAN delivery 500MW from the 200MWh array but for 2/5ths of an hour.


Personally I can't see anything wrong with the graphic. It simply says that 200MW of power has come on-stream in 2018, drawn from total energy storage of 500 MWh.

If a single kettle draws 2kW then the 2018 installations can power up to 100,000 kettles for a total of two and a half hours.

GS


Your interpretation is correct GS.

However, the discussion around the units on this chart is missing the key point. This shows installed battery capacity by cell type/chemistry. More relevant is the advances and scaleability in liquid air storage. For grid scale, this may prove to be ahead of chemical storage

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Re: Storage stuff

#274410

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » January 1st, 2020, 12:15 pm

TUK020 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Correct. The graphic is wrong. It is impossible to deliver 500WWh from a 200MWh storage array. You CAN delivery 500MW from the 200MWh array but for 2/5ths of an hour.


Personally I can't see anything wrong with the graphic. It simply says that 200MW of power has come on-stream in 2018, drawn from total energy storage of 500 MWh.

If a single kettle draws 2kW then the 2018 installations can power up to 100,000 kettles for a total of two and a half hours.

GS


Your interpretation is correct GS.

However, the discussion around the units on this chart is missing the key point. This shows installed battery capacity by cell type/chemistry. More relevant is the advances and scaleability in liquid air storage. For grid scale, this may prove to be ahead of chemical storage

I entirely agree. (Lack of) grid scale storage is becoming a critical issue. I think it was in The Times, in 2019 48.5% of UK generation was non-fossil fuel. A truly remarkable change I never thought I'd live to see. Grid scale energy storage I see as the next obvious big leap forward. Yet I see little appetite. I have closely watched a business called Storelectric who have singularly failed to date to fund even a pilot scale compressed air energy storage plant. A recent crowd funding attempt mostly failed to raise capital to move it forward. What the catalyst will be that causes grid scale energy storage plants to be built? I simply do not know.

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Re: Storage stuff

#274413

Postby dspp » January 1st, 2020, 12:36 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
TUK020 wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:
Personally I can't see anything wrong with the graphic. It simply says that 200MW of power has come on-stream in 2018, drawn from total energy storage of 500 MWh.

If a single kettle draws 2kW then the 2018 installations can power up to 100,000 kettles for a total of two and a half hours.

GS


Your interpretation is correct GS.

However, the discussion around the units on this chart is missing the key point. This shows installed battery capacity by cell type/chemistry. More relevant is the advances and scaleability in liquid air storage. For grid scale, this may prove to be ahead of chemical storage

I entirely agree. (Lack of) grid scale storage is becoming a critical issue. I think it was in The Times, in 2019 48.5% of UK generation was non-fossil fuel. A truly remarkable change I never thought I'd live to see. Grid scale energy storage I see as the next obvious big leap forward. Yet I see little appetite. I have closely watched a business called Storelectric who have singularly failed to date to fund even a pilot scale compressed air energy storage plant. A recent crowd funding attempt mostly failed to raise capital to move it forward. What the catalyst will be that causes grid scale energy storage plants to be built? I simply do not know.


Need & money.

At the moment the need is not there except for very small scale stuff which in the UK is already being done in the fast frequency response market, which is a commercial auction. The technology already exists and is scaling fast, but it is more commercially attractive to use it in mobility applications (from laptops to scooters to bikes to cars) than in static applications. You have to remember that a country like the UK has a first wave adopter advantage in that gas-turbine installations that become uneconomic due to merit order effect can see out the end of their lives as cheap grid backup.

Compressed air storage is imho the wrong approach. Most people agree with me which is why it does not get funded, or win any of the commercial money auctions in this sector.

regards, dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#274416

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » January 1st, 2020, 12:48 pm

dspp wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
TUK020 wrote:
Your interpretation is correct GS.

However, the discussion around the units on this chart is missing the key point. This shows installed battery capacity by cell type/chemistry. More relevant is the advances and scaleability in liquid air storage. For grid scale, this may prove to be ahead of chemical storage

I entirely agree. (Lack of) grid scale storage is becoming a critical issue. I think it was in The Times, in 2019 48.5% of UK generation was non-fossil fuel. A truly remarkable change I never thought I'd live to see. Grid scale energy storage I see as the next obvious big leap forward. Yet I see little appetite. I have closely watched a business called Storelectric who have singularly failed to date to fund even a pilot scale compressed air energy storage plant. A recent crowd funding attempt mostly failed to raise capital to move it forward. What the catalyst will be that causes grid scale energy storage plants to be built? I simply do not know.


Need & money.

At the moment the need is not there except for very small scale stuff which in the UK is already being done in the fast frequency response market, which is a commercial auction. The technology already exists and is scaling fast, but it is more commercially attractive to use it in mobility applications (from laptops to scooters to bikes to cars) than in static applications. You have to remember that a country like the UK has a first wave adopter advantage in that gas-turbine installations that become uneconomic due to merit order effect can see out the end of their lives as cheap grid backup.

Compressed air storage is imho the wrong approach. Most people agree with me which is why it does not get funded, or win any of the commercial money auctions in this sector.

regards, dspp

I see the landscape changing. When we have the next generation of multiple GW wind power arrays on line there will be much more need to soak up wind generation. Presently we pay the wind turbine operators to come off line. Far more effective to give the power being generated to a CAES operator who can soak up all those surplus megawatts by pushing high pressure air into underground ex-salt caverns? Grid scale CAES time may well be just around the corner after many false dawns.

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#274421

Postby dspp » January 1st, 2020, 1:08 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
dspp wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:I entirely agree. (Lack of) grid scale storage is becoming a critical issue. I think it was in The Times, in 2019 48.5% of UK generation was non-fossil fuel. A truly remarkable change I never thought I'd live to see. Grid scale energy storage I see as the next obvious big leap forward. Yet I see little appetite. I have closely watched a business called Storelectric who have singularly failed to date to fund even a pilot scale compressed air energy storage plant. A recent crowd funding attempt mostly failed to raise capital to move it forward. What the catalyst will be that causes grid scale energy storage plants to be built? I simply do not know.


Need & money.

At the moment the need is not there except for very small scale stuff which in the UK is already being done in the fast frequency response market, which is a commercial auction. The technology already exists and is scaling fast, but it is more commercially attractive to use it in mobility applications (from laptops to scooters to bikes to cars) than in static applications. You have to remember that a country like the UK has a first wave adopter advantage in that gas-turbine installations that become uneconomic due to merit order effect can see out the end of their lives as cheap grid backup.

Compressed air storage is imho the wrong approach. Most people agree with me which is why it does not get funded, or win any of the commercial money auctions in this sector.

regards, dspp

I see the landscape changing. When we have the next generation of multiple GW wind power arrays on line there will be much more need to soak up wind generation. Presently we pay the wind turbine operators to come off line. Far more effective to give the power being generated to a CAES operator who can soak up all those surplus megawatts by pushing high pressure air into underground ex-salt caverns? Grid scale CAES time may well be just around the corner after many false dawns.


Have you done the sums ?

(I have, and I have written about the conclusions here on TLF as well as on TMF if you use the search function)

dspp

TUK020
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Re: Storage stuff

#274429

Postby TUK020 » January 1st, 2020, 1:47 pm

dspp wrote:
Compressed air storage is imho the wrong approach. Most people agree with me which is why it does not get funded, or win any of the commercial money auctions in this sector.

regards, dspp


dspp
Does your "compressed air storage" comment apply to Highview Power's Liquid Air Energy Storage (LAES) technology?
Would be interested in understanding your thinking on this
tuk020

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#274445

Postby dspp » January 1st, 2020, 2:48 pm

TUK020 wrote:
dspp wrote:
Compressed air storage is imho the wrong approach. Most people agree with me which is why it does not get funded, or win any of the commercial money auctions in this sector.

regards, dspp


dspp
Does your "compressed air storage" comment apply to Highview Power's Liquid Air Energy Storage (LAES) technology?
Would be interested in understanding your thinking on this
tuk020


Yes.

There may be special cases, but until/unless I see someone do the sums to suggest otherwise I think that the technology pathway of lithium battery storage is the most attractive one.

An example of a special case is pump/storage hydro where a favourable location combines with both good sources and good loads. There aren't so many of those, and they tend not to be globally scaleable. Nor is the technology cost curve helping them deploy.

I've also done the sums as you know, both for how much storage is required, and when it is required. Likewise I have thoughts about where it is required in grid architecture terms. None of this suggests an urgent need to scale static storage massively for another decade. Interesting and quite sizeable experiments, yes. Massive scaling, no. *

I'm not saying that compressed air storage cannot happen, but it is for the proponents of it to do the sums in all respects, and show them openly. Not just the hand wavey stuff that we see too much of.

(there are some sums in discussion occasionally on the Tesla thread at viewtopic.php?f=76&t=5037&p=274442#p274442, and that is about as close as you can get to an investable storage play imho. Mind you it comes with a lot of trailing wires attached. The others that I know in this space that I think are potentially viable are nowhere near pure plays, and have even more wires attached ........ ! But in any case any storage play needs to do a full & fully disclosed analysis of themselves and of lithium on a level playing field basis before they deserve attention)

regards, dspp

* If you look at the Tesla numbers I give you can see that static storage has declined from 13% of the pack use, down to a low of about 3%, and is now at about 6%. So that gives you an insight into where Tesla are setting the prioritisation. And they are the market leaders ...... Interestingly I don't see anyone else tracking these numbers in public apart from me. Presumably Lazards etc are all doing it in private, but I am not inclined to buy their reports.

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#284115

Postby dspp » February 13th, 2020, 10:30 pm

TSLA storage article, some good bits .....
https://seekingalpha.com/article/432403 ... re-results
dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#285997

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » February 22nd, 2020, 1:29 am

I don't think this has been done here yet -
https://www.edie.net/news/8/Biggest-bat ... sh-shores/

ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Storage stuff

#286778

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » February 26th, 2020, 9:18 am

Things looking up a little for Liquid Air Energy Storage?
https://www.highviewpower.com/news_anno ... -globally/


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