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Hydrogen matters

tjh290633
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380325

Postby tjh290633 » January 24th, 2021, 4:38 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:CO is actually pretty difficult stuff to work with. It's pretty active (as well as deadly) and is always trying to turn itself into carbon and CO2. It's awful stuff.

RVF

I don't recall the town's gas industry having too many problems with blue water gas.

TJH

ReallyVeryFoolish
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380327

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » January 24th, 2021, 4:55 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:CO is actually pretty difficult stuff to work with. It's pretty active (as well as deadly) and is always trying to turn itself into carbon and CO2. It's awful stuff.

RVF

I don't recall the town's gas industry having too many problems with blue water gas.

TJH

Try compressing it as we do when using CO in chemical processes. I presume back as towns gas, it was made and distributed at low pressure so wouldn't have experienced the issues you get with industrial uses of the gas. But CO is just as deadly in towns gas as it is when generated any other way. I suppose those who worked in the industry understood to treat the stuff with the respect it calls for. I have worked on a lot of stuff like hydrogen cyanide, phosgene, hydrogen fluoride etc.... plants. The idea is to to keep the nasty stuff on the inside of the plant equipment!

RVF

tjh290633
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380340

Postby tjh290633 » January 24th, 2021, 5:40 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:CO is actually pretty difficult stuff to work with. It's pretty active (as well as deadly) and is always trying to turn itself into carbon and CO2. It's awful stuff.

RVF

I don't recall the town's gas industry having too many problems with blue water gas.

TJH

Try compressing it as we do when using CO in chemical processes. I presume back as towns gas, it was made and distributed at low pressure so wouldn't have experienced the issues you get with industrial uses of the gas. But CO is just as deadly in towns gas as it is when generated any other way. I suppose those who worked in the industry understood to treat the stuff with the respect it calls for. I have worked on a lot of stuff like hydrogen cyanide, phosgene, hydrogen fluoride etc.... plants. The idea is to to keep the nasty stuff on the inside of the plant equipment!

RVF

Of course back in those days it was the medium of choice for many a suicide, either the gas oven or the car exhaust.

It was low pressure, but syngas is usually high pressure, Lurgi process for example.

TJH

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380345

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » January 24th, 2021, 5:47 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:I don't recall the town's gas industry having too many problems with blue water gas.

TJH

Try compressing it as we do when using CO in chemical processes. I presume back as towns gas, it was made and distributed at low pressure so wouldn't have experienced the issues you get with industrial uses of the gas. But CO is just as deadly in towns gas as it is when generated any other way. I suppose those who worked in the industry understood to treat the stuff with the respect it calls for. I have worked on a lot of stuff like hydrogen cyanide, phosgene, hydrogen fluoride etc.... plants. The idea is to to keep the nasty stuff on the inside of the plant equipment!

RVF

Of course back in those days it was the medium of choice for many a suicide, either the gas oven or the car exhaust.

It was low pressure, but syngas is usually high pressure, Lurgi process for example.

TJH

Yes, and such plants being highly sensitive to poor plant operation.

RVF

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#381182

Postby dspp » January 27th, 2021, 11:55 am

Well, you can't accuse these folks of being shy,

"Hydrogen is Big Oil’s Last Grand Scam
............. So why did hydrogen receive so much attention in 2020 when no hydrogen-powered technology company had any significant breakout, and the transition away from conventional internal combustion engine vehicles appears to strongly favor EVs? This is a curious situation, as major fossil fuel companies have been asking governments around the world for Covid-19 stimulus funding to invest in hydrogen technology production."

https://www.jadecove.com/research/hydrogenscam

- dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#381195

Postby ReallyVeryFoolish » January 27th, 2021, 12:19 pm

dspp wrote:Well, you can't accuse these folks of being shy,

"Hydrogen is Big Oil’s Last Grand Scam
............. So why did hydrogen receive so much attention in 2020 when no hydrogen-powered technology company had any significant breakout, and the transition away from conventional internal combustion engine vehicles appears to strongly favor EVs? This is a curious situation, as major fossil fuel companies have been asking governments around the world for Covid-19 stimulus funding to invest in hydrogen technology production."

https://www.jadecove.com/research/hydrogenscam

- dspp

Thank you for that, it's very interesting. I am going to share the pdf some colleagues in the industry. Just bear in mind the most dangerous words in investing -

This time could be different.


RVF

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382095

Postby JohnB » January 29th, 2021, 8:59 pm

I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382118

Postby Sorcery » January 29th, 2021, 10:37 pm

JohnB wrote:I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.


So, "pantograph" while sounding very horny, is it different to "normal" ?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382120

Postby Nimrod103 » January 29th, 2021, 11:00 pm

JohnB wrote:I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.


The future is a trolleybus. Who would have guessed?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382123

Postby mc2fool » January 29th, 2021, 11:27 pm

Sorcery wrote:
JohnB wrote:I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.


So, "pantograph" while sounding very horny, is it different to "normal" ?

Pantograph recharging: The pantograph is the retractable mechanism sticking up from the top of the bus.

Image
http://www.stemmann.com/en/products/charging_systems/chargingpanto_for_e_busses

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382176

Postby mc2fool » January 30th, 2021, 11:13 am

Hmmm ... that didn't work ... here's a direct link to the image I meant to post:

http://www.stemmann.com/gallery/pages/ladepantograph_fuer_e_busse2/stg_ladestrom_systeme_ladepanto_e_busse_002.jpg

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382177

Postby Sorcery » January 30th, 2021, 11:13 am

Pantograph recharging: The pantograph is the retractable mechanism sticking up from the top of the bus.

Image
http://www.stemmann.com/en/products/charging_systems/chargingpanto_for_e_busses[/quote]

Thanks for the picture. It's a strange name for a refuelling pipe. Why panto? Why graph? The word could be an ideal candidate for the old TV program "Call my Bluff".

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382183

Postby mc2fool » January 30th, 2021, 11:32 am

Sorcery wrote:Thanks for the picture. It's a strange name for a refuelling pipe. Why panto? Why graph? The word could be an ideal candidate for the old TV program "Call my Bluff".

It's not a pipe, unless you count an electricity carrying wire as a pipe, which I guess it is in one way of looking at it. :D

The name refers to the retractable mechanism and comes from the original use of it, but, as Wiki says, it's come to refer to any "kind of structure that can compress or extend like an accordion, forming a characteristic rhomboidal pattern." See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph.

I guess the place you're most often likely to see one nowadays is on top of trains or trams. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph_(transport)

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382206

Postby 88V8 » January 30th, 2021, 12:40 pm

Gosh, I remember trolleybuses. The sparks, the acceleration, the panto falling off the wire and having to be put back with a long wooden pole.

V8

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382210

Postby PeterGray » January 30th, 2021, 12:50 pm

Sorcery wrote:Thanks for the picture. It's a strange name for a refuelling pipe. Why panto? Why graph? The word could be an ideal candidate for the old TV program "Call my Bluff".


Aren't you old enough to have had a pantograph as a kid? Or made one from Meccano? You could use them to copy, or enlarge drawings (hence graph), plenty of pics if you google. The Greeks used them to copy writing (panto - all, graph - write)

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382212

Postby PeterGray » January 30th, 2021, 12:52 pm

88V8 wrote:Gosh, I remember trolleybuses. The sparks, the acceleration, the panto falling off the wire and having to be put back with a long wooden pole.

V8


They used to have a turning point down our road, always entertaining to watch the conductor moving the pantograph from one set of wires to the other with a long pole. I think modern tram systems manage without that!

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382220

Postby Sorcery » January 30th, 2021, 1:13 pm

PeterGray wrote:
Sorcery wrote:Thanks for the picture. It's a strange name for a refuelling pipe. Why panto? Why graph? The word could be an ideal candidate for the old TV program "Call my Bluff".


Aren't you old enough to have had a pantograph as a kid? Or made one from Meccano? You could use them to copy, or enlarge drawings (hence graph), plenty of pics if you google. The Greeks used them to copy writing (panto - all, graph - write)


No I don't think I did. Rather wish I had, might have been useful when given lines at school. ;)

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382269

Postby Nimrod103 » January 30th, 2021, 5:02 pm

PeterGray wrote:
88V8 wrote:Gosh, I remember trolleybuses. The sparks, the acceleration, the panto falling off the wire and having to be put back with a long wooden pole.

V8


They used to have a turning point down our road, always entertaining to watch the conductor moving the pantograph from one set of wires to the other with a long pole. I think modern tram systems manage without that!


Just on semantics. The trolleybuses and old trams had poles for current collection (and return in the case of the trolleybuses). As stated, pantographs are the rhomboid, or half rhomboid (i.e. dogleg) type of retractable current collection. AIUI modern electric trains and trams have pantographs because they cannot be dislodged by wind etc which is a problem with the old fashioned poles.
I have been reading recently about the Manx Electric Railway which has poles, but the connected Snaefell Mountain Railway has bow type pickups like pantographs because it gets windy on the top of the mountain.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382401

Postby 88V8 » January 31st, 2021, 11:32 am

Mobile hydrogen matters... Scania, who already have hydrogen hybrids in use, have decided that it's a bad idea ... the use of hydrogen for such applications will be limited since three times as much renewable electricity is needed to power a hydrogen truck compared to a battery electric truck.
A great deal of energy is lost in the production, distribution, and conversion back to electricity.
https://newatlas.com/automotive/scania- ... -hydrogen/

Reality, dear boy, reality.

V8

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382427

Postby JohnB » January 31st, 2021, 1:02 pm

And yes, people are considering pantograph systems along motorways for trucks, so they only need battery range for off-motorway sections. http://www.csrf.ac.uk/2020/07/white-pap ... ification/

And on the same site http://www.csrf.ac.uk/2020/12/electrici ... n-economy/

If that kills hydrogen trucks, that just leaves hydrogen aircraft and ships.


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