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Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

AsleepInYorkshire
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Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454554

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » October 31st, 2021, 12:05 pm

JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions

I've not followed the debate as to which fuel(s) will replace petrol and diesel. But JCB seem to be taking some direction towards hydrogen.

Is there's still time for hydrogen to develop as a replacement for powering larger vehicles?

AiY

ReformedCharacter
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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454565

Postby ReformedCharacter » October 31st, 2021, 12:31 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions

I've not followed the debate as to which fuel(s) will replace petrol and diesel. But JCB seem to be taking some direction towards hydrogen.

Is there's still time for hydrogen to develop as a replacement for powering larger vehicles?

AiY

This may be of interest:

Blue hydrogen is being enthusiastically promoted by natural gas producers as the simplest and cheapest answer to decarbonising our economies. But recent studies have shown that it's overall greenhouse gas emissions footprint is worse than natural gas. So, is this just the latest in a long series of diversions and deceptions from the fossil fuel industry?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EA4tDYwNYo

RC

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454570

Postby JohnB » October 31st, 2021, 12:50 pm

An odd decision, as most JCB plant is employed on sites with very predictable workflows, and long idle times where batteries could be recharged. Factories and quarries are fully wired, and even on greenfield sites power is rarely far away, and an ad-hoc charging point seems a lot easier to install than a hydrogen refueling station. I wonder if energy density is really the driver away from batteries, as plant can afford to be heavy, and often the load very intermittent, so fuel consumption is more van like than HGV like.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454578

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » October 31st, 2021, 1:15 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:Blue hydrogen is being enthusiastically promoted by natural gas producers as the simplest and cheapest answer to decarbonising our economies. But recent studies have shown that it's overall greenhouse gas emissions footprint is worse than natural gas. So, is this just the latest in a long series of diversions and deceptions from the fossil fuel industry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EA4tDYwNYo

Is the hydrogen JCB are buying blue? The deal seems to go well past 2030 and Fortescue Future Industries (FFI) seem to be selling "green" hydrogen I think. Strong emphasis on I think

AiY

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454612

Postby Mike4 » October 31st, 2021, 2:41 pm

JohnB wrote:An odd decision, as most JCB plant is employed on sites with very predictable workflows, and long idle times where batteries could be recharged. Factories and quarries are fully wired, and even on greenfield sites power is rarely far away, and an ad-hoc charging point seems a lot easier to install than a hydrogen refueling station. I wonder if energy density is really the driver away from batteries, as plant can afford to be heavy, and often the load very intermittent, so fuel consumption is more van like than HGV like.


This is simply not true, according to Lord Bamford on the Beeb the other day and agrees with my own limited experience on building sites. The heavy machinery by firms like JCB make gets used intensively all day when on site rather than having long idle times, and battery power does not have the energy density to allow say a digger to work all day. Even the biggest batteries run flat after a couple of hours and have to be recharged during the resulting long enforced rest periods unlike diesel powered diggers etc. No good at all on site. Hence the decision to go with hydrogen-powered ICE diggers and worry later about where the hydrogen is to come from.

Batteries are not yet good enough from an energy density point of view by at least an order of magnitude or two, with nothing good enough on the horizon as far as I can see.

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454630

Postby daveh » October 31st, 2021, 4:11 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:Blue hydrogen is being enthusiastically promoted by natural gas producers as the simplest and cheapest answer to decarbonising our economies. But recent studies have shown that it's overall greenhouse gas emissions footprint is worse than natural gas. So, is this just the latest in a long series of diversions and deceptions from the fossil fuel industry?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EA4tDYwNYo

Is the hydrogen JCB are buying blue? The deal seems to go well past 2030 and Fortescue Future Industries (FFI) seem to be selling "green" hydrogen I think. Strong emphasis on I think

AiY


The reports are saying green hydrogen, produced with renewable energy, but not in the UK, so it will be produced abroad and shipped in.

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454632

Postby JohnB » October 31st, 2021, 4:24 pm

Some hyperbole there, as 2 orders of magnitude is 100fold, and JCB already sell small battery powered diggers https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/products/mini ... ors/19c-1e

It won't take much improvement in battery technology to move up to bigger machines. They need to go from 2 to 8 hours, as I doubt many work double shifts.

JohnB
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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454635

Postby JohnB » October 31st, 2021, 4:41 pm

From a industry magazine, a 2019 article. https://www.constructconnect.com/blog/e ... o-electric

Pon Equipment, with input and support from Caterpillar, converted a 28-ton CAT 323F excavator from diesel to electric. The diesel engine was replaced with a 122kW electric motor and a 300kWh lithium-ion battery pack that weighs 3.4 tons.

Known as the Z-Line, the modified excavator can work for five to seven hours before needing to be recharged which can be done in one to two hours. Pon Equipment has already sold its first model to a construction company in Norway that is planning to buy more.


28 tons is quite a meaty machine.

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454660

Postby Midsmartin » October 31st, 2021, 8:16 pm

I imagine that manufacturers of agricultural machinery must all be looking at hydrogen.

As I understand it, using hydrogen is somewhat less energy efficient than a plug in electric vehicle, but the only way to go on a farm.

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#454692

Postby GrahamPlatt » November 1st, 2021, 5:23 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172xzlhnsfqvmt

Andrew Forrest, previously of Fortescue Mining ; starts 2’ 10” in.

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#460454

Postby BobGe » November 24th, 2021, 5:00 am

Mike4 wrote:
JohnB wrote:An odd decision, as most JCB plant is employed on sites with very predictable workflows, and long idle times where batteries could be recharged. Factories and quarries are fully wired, and even on greenfield sites power is rarely far away, and an ad-hoc charging point seems a lot easier to install than a hydrogen refueling station. I wonder if energy density is really the driver away from batteries, as plant can afford to be heavy, and often the load very intermittent, so fuel consumption is more van like than HGV like.


This is simply not true, according to Lord Bamford on the Beeb the other day and agrees with my own limited experience on building sites. The heavy machinery by firms like JCB make gets used intensively all day when on site rather than having long idle times, and battery power does not have the energy density to allow say a digger to work all day. Even the biggest batteries run flat after a couple of hours and have to be recharged during the resulting long enforced rest periods unlike diesel powered diggers etc. No good at all on site. Hence the decision to go with hydrogen-powered ICE diggers and worry later about where the hydrogen is to come from.

Batteries are not yet good enough from an energy density point of view by at least an order of magnitude or two, with nothing good enough on the horizon as far as I can see.

I think one can safely assume that Anthony Bamford, as his father Joe Bamford before him, is comprehensively knowledgeable and understanding of the nature and needs of the business they have built over years. It's one of this countries great successes.

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#460524

Postby Hallucigenia » November 24th, 2021, 11:29 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions

I've not followed the debate as to which fuel(s) will replace petrol and diesel. But JCB seem to be taking some direction towards hydrogen.

Is there's still time for hydrogen to develop as a replacement for powering larger vehicles?


It's rather consistent with Michael Liebreich's hydrogen "ladder" which I've posted here before. Which broadly says that hydrogen is going to be only a niche for vehicles in the same way that eg LPG is a niche fuel for homes and cars - it makes sense to use natural gas for heating your home and cooking, but if you don't have a mains gas connection then you have to use LPG. But what hydrogen is going to be available by 2035 will almost all be needed by industries which don't have the option of using electricity, like chemical/fertiliser production.

But *some* construction vehicles may fall into that niche, as they're used eg in forestry work or remote construction sites (windfarms, Outback mines etc) that don't have good electrical grid connections that can support the kind of power needed to charge Big Batteries. So JCB will at least offer their customers the option - they're going the "low-tech" (or "prudently incremental") route of burning hydrogen in adapted diesel engines rather than messing about with fuel cells of higher efficiency but uncertain robustness.

OTOH another option for those remote sites, particularly in Africa or Australia, would be replaceable batteries charged by local solar panels.
~

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#460532

Postby Hallucigenia » November 24th, 2021, 11:53 am

Oops, meant to post the ladder again :

Image

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#460544

Postby JohnB » November 24th, 2021, 12:34 pm

A nice chart, though electric steel plants are coming online, and I'd split "offroad" into "expeditions" in B, "mining/heavy construction" in D and "farming" in E. Most infrastructure will need power on completion, and firms would prioritise grid connection earlier in the process, rather than planning a hydrogen trucking system and paying a lot more for power.

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Re: Hydrogen - JCB Sign Billion Pound Deal

#460635

Postby Hallucigenia » November 24th, 2021, 5:40 pm

JohnB wrote:A nice chart, though electric steel plants are coming online, and I'd split "offroad" into "expeditions" in B, "mining/heavy construction" in D and "farming" in E. Most infrastructure will need power on completion, and firms would prioritise grid connection earlier in the process, rather than planning a hydrogen trucking system and paying a lot more for power.


Liebreich is well aware of electric steel, and from memory he regards steel as the one area perhaps most likely to prove him wrong, but I can't remember off-hand the reason for his current scepticism. He's no newbie to this stuff - he founded what would become Bloomberg New Energy Finance in 2004 - and he's prepared to move things up and down depending on progress, he's moved off-road up one level following a recent visit to JCB.

I think the one certainty about the off-road stuff is that it is even more diverse than you make out, the same kit could be being used in a mine with a multi-MW grid connection, or making roads in the middle of nowhere, so it's hard to generalise. There's plenty of mines without grid connections, they are one of the big users of big diesel generators. And something like a combine harvester is perhaps better suited to hydrogen than electric - not used 10+ months of the year, but when it is used, it is used 16 hours a day and can't afford to hang around for charging.


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