The Lemon Fool

Posted: **January 1st, 2021, 8:14 am**

johnhemming wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Of course getting hydrogen into the vehicle fuel scenario, would be immensely challenging.

It is nice to have people like dspp and RVF who know their stuff and have practical experience. I had an intuitive view about CCS and I am pleased that dspp confirms this to be accurate. In the end, however, these issues are driven by the laws of physics.

I believe that whats actually at stake are applications of the laws of physics. Which evolve with human history.

Whilst the quest for current day answers is assisted by erudition, what are unknowns for me currently include:

1. How many megatonnes of Li would required for grid storage for the UK?
2. What about for vehicles?
3. Will charging technologies and infrastructure catch up in time?
4. Will it ever be practical to charge 40 ton lorrys engine battery quickly?

Maybe whilst those questions remain unanalysed H2 speculation will continue?

Matt

Posted: **January 1st, 2021, 8:19 am**

johnhemming wrote:Hydrogen, of course, unless used in our favourite fusion plant which has run for millions of years and will run for more, is not a source of power.

Strictly speaking whats being proposed is H2 as a storage medium not a direct fuel. Of course you could argue that they are one and the same regarding analysis of pros and cons. I'd probably differ on that if H2 is merely a component. However as physics reminds us; difficulties remain.

Matt

Posted: **January 1st, 2021, 8:43 am**

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Maybe whilst those questions remain unanalysed H2 speculation will continue?

My main concern is that we don't waste too much public money on this.

When people talk about "The Hydrogen Economy" it prejudges the conclusions.

It is the sort of shallow nonsense that would attract Boris Johnson and his cronies.

Posted: **January 1st, 2021, 10:36 am**

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Well said. And it isn't a party political thing either

What also happens is things like this:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... vice-areas

Dear Secretary of State,
Please require all Motorway Service Areas to provide Hydrogen refuelling facilities for Fuel Cell cars by 2018 so that people who wish to travel without creating harmful emissions by using Hydrogen powered vehicles can be sure of being able to refuel on long journeys.

And people then spam their MPs with ill informed suggestions which make things less energy efficient and often are not happy if the MP's staff write a well informed response questioning the merits of the policy. So MPs may respond saying "that's an interesting Idea" and write to the minister and it goes round and round in an ill-informed scientific mess.

Posted: **January 1st, 2021, 10:51 am**

johnhemming wrote:And people then spam their MPs with ill informed suggestions which make things less energy efficient and often are not happy if the MP's staff write a well informed response questioning the merits of the policy. So MPs may respond saying "that's an interesting Idea" and write to the minister and it goes round and round in an ill-informed scientific mess.

Oh dear. The more I know about how government works, the less I like it.

It would be worth breaking Hydrogen into a separate topic? Just a thought.

V8

Posted: **January 1st, 2021, 11:31 am**

88V8 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:And people then spam their MPs with ill informed suggestions which make things less energy efficient and often are not happy if the MP's staff write a well informed response questioning the merits of the policy. So MPs may respond saying "that's an interesting Idea" and write to the minister and it goes round and round in an ill-informed scientific mess.

Oh dear. The more I know about how government works, the less I like it.

It would be worth breaking Hydrogen into a separate topic? Just a thought.

V8

Hydrogen already is a separate topic within the Energy board, see viewtopic.php?f=16&t=24190

Here on the energy board it would be appreciated if people could avoid the temptation to lob it all on one topic thread, and instead use the threads that are ready and waiting for each subject area.

Happy New Year all,
dspp

Posted: **January 1st, 2021, 3:30 pm**

Bloomberg - ten charts on energy in 2020

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... gy-in-2020

- dspp

Posted: **January 6th, 2021, 11:53 am**

US-EIA: U.S. Renewables consumption surpasses coal first time in modern power age
U.S. renewable energy consumption in 2019 surpassed coal for the first time in 135 years, according to the federal Energy Information Administration (EIA). Total renewable energy consumption in the United States grew for the fourth year in a row to a record-high 11.5 quadrillion British thermal units (Btu) in 2019. Coal consumption, meanwhile, dropped for the sixth straight year and totaled 11.3 quadrillion Btus, according to the EIA analysis. The overall coal consumption was at its lowest level nationally since 1964. Coal-fired electricity generation also fell to a 42-year low. This outcome mainly reflects the continued decline in the amount of coal used for electricity generation over the past decade as well as growth in renewable energy, mostly from wind and solar. Compared with 2018, coal consumption in the United States decreased nearly 15%, and total renewable energy consumption grew by 1%.

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/20 ... newsletter

etc

- dspp

Posted: **January 6th, 2021, 3:48 pm**

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Food for thought?

Can Renewables Become As Profitable As Oil And Gas?

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... d-Gas.html

RVF

Indeed, and this I have said many times for many many years. The only investable answer I found was TSLA.

regards, dspp

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 6:20 pm**

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
dspp wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Food for thought?

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... d-Gas.html

RVF

Indeed, and this I have said many times for many many years. The only investable answer I found was TSLA.

regards, dspp

In a few weeks, we shall hear from Shell what their actual business reinvention plan is. Be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

I have said before, if any of the oil majors can reinvent themselves, I believe it's going to be Shell. But that might just be wishful thinking on my part, ultimately.

RVF

Shell?

Would that not be markedly at odds with your earlier remarks you to me regarding H2?

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

Confused, Matt

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 6:24 pm**

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
Would that not be markedly at odds with your earlier remarks you to me regarding H2?
https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

With vital funding of the EU's Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking,

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 6:31 pm**

johnhemming wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
Would that not be markedly at odds with your earlier remarks you to me regarding H2?
https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

With vital funding of the EU's Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking,

RVF was disparaging of the H2 economy regardless of whether EU or UK.....if that was your point...which was somewhat terse.

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 6:34 pm**

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
johnhemming wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
Would that not be markedly at odds with your earlier remarks you to me regarding H2?
https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

With vital funding of the EU's Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking,

RVF was disparaging of the H2 economy regardless of whether EU or UK.....if that was your point...which was somewhat terse.

My point is that they are doing things which are state funded.

It doesn't matter which state.

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 6:37 pm**

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
dspp wrote:
Indeed, and this I have said many times for many many years. The only investable answer I found was TSLA.

regards, dspp

In a few weeks, we shall hear from Shell what their actual business reinvention plan is. Be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

I have said before, if any of the oil majors can reinvent themselves, I believe it's going to be Shell. But that might just be wishful thinking on my part, ultimately.

RVF

Shell?

Would that not be markedly at odds with your earlier remarks you to me regarding H2?

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

Confused, Matt

I don't think so. Where do you find the contradiction ? Happy to help if I can. (in many ways Shell is hopelessly internally conflicted over H2, and has been for decades, probably terminally)

regards, dspp

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 6:40 pm**

Lets wait for what RVF reckons to Shell getting into dino juice:

In Germany, Shell is working on the REFHYNE electrolyser that will produce green hydrogen using renewable energy. With vital funding of the EU's Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking, this 10 MW electrolyser, which uses advanced proton exchange membrane (PEM) technology, will be one of the largest hydrogen electrolysers of its kind when completed in 2021. The plant will be built by ITM Power and operated by Shell, producing 1,300 tonnes of hydrogen per year.

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

Matt

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 6:41 pm**

dspp wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:In a few weeks, we shall hear from Shell what their actual business reinvention plan is. Be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

I have said before, if any of the oil majors can reinvent themselves, I believe it's going to be Shell. But that might just be wishful thinking on my part, ultimately.

RVF

Shell?

Would that not be markedly at odds with your earlier remarks you to me regarding H2?

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

Confused, Matt

I don't think so. Where do you find the contradiction ? Happy to help if I can. (in many ways Shell is hopelessly internally conflicted over H2, and has been for decades, probably terminally)

regards, dspp

Just curious regards RVFs opinion, hence my quoting him.

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 7:04 pm**

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:In a few weeks, we shall hear from Shell what their actual business reinvention plan is. Be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

I have said before, if any of the oil majors can reinvent themselves, I believe it's going to be Shell. But that might just be wishful thinking on my part, ultimately.

RVF

Shell?

Would that not be markedly at odds with your earlier remarks you to me regarding H2?

https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innova ... rogen.html

Confused, Matt

No, not at all? Do I miss your point?

I have long believed (on record here) that if any of the O&G super majors can transition successfully to the new energy age, it's Shell. Not everyone agrees, of course. Those projects in your link are a relative flea bite in the overall scheme, but you start at the beginning. I hope to hear much, much more soon from Shell as announced sometime in February.

FWIW, there's already a significant hydrogen distribution network in the Europoort/Rotterdam area. Shell are connected into it already at Pernis.

RVF

Exactly. RVF and I are thinking alike here. If you look at the world's major petrochem complexes (Rotterdam, SE China, Texas, etc) they can all support and justify an H2 grid with limited extensions to reach the major adjacent heavy industries (Ruhr, etc). It is taking H2 beyond those clusters in a cost-effective way vs the alternative (pure electric) that is the problem, and Shell are well aware of that. So they'll try pushing the boundary, but not too stupidly.

regards, dspp

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 7:09 pm**

So not dino juice strictly speaking then?

Posted: **January 8th, 2021, 7:18 pm**

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:So not dino juice strictly speaking then?

It will be both sources, dino (steam-reformed CH4) and newborn (electrolysis or etc of H2O). Hence some of the stuff you linked to in that Shell bumph. regards, dspp

Posted: **January 12th, 2021, 11:48 am**

US EIA

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) latest inventory of electricity generators, developers and power plant owners plan for 39.7 gigawatts (GW) of new electricity generating capacity to start commercial operation in 2021. Solar will account for the largest share of new capacity at 39%, followed by wind at 31%. About 3% of the new capacity will come from the new nuclear reactor at the Vogtle power plant in Georgia. [+16% gas + 11% battery storage*]

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46416

* presumably that means something that got buffered in a battery, not the original source

- dspp

The Lemon Fool

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