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Storage stuff

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#284115

Postby dspp » February 13th, 2020, 10:30 pm

TSLA storage article, some good bits .....
https://seekingalpha.com/article/432403 ... re-results
dspp

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#309906

Postby dspp » May 19th, 2020, 12:06 pm

Storage + renewables, at scale, in USA

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=43775

- dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#309916

Postby richfool » May 19th, 2020, 12:22 pm

dspp wrote:Storage + renewables, at scale, in USA

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=43775

- dspp

Thanks for that link, dspp.

I have been taking an interest in companies like: GSF (Gore Street Energy Storage) and GRID (Gresham House Energy Storage), who invest in battery storage systems, but I would think that any real (investment) potential ought to be from companies involved in the actual development and discovery of battery and other storage related systems, and in that respect I wouldn't have much idea as to where to direct investments.

(I have a small holding in GSF).

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Re: Storage stuff

#309940

Postby dspp » May 19th, 2020, 12:54 pm

richfool wrote:
dspp wrote:Storage + renewables, at scale, in USA

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=43775

- dspp

Thanks for that link, dspp.

I have been taking an interest in companies like: GSF (Gore Street Energy Storage) and GRID (Gresham House Energy Storage), who invest in battery storage systems, but I would think that any real (investment) potential ought to be from companies involved in the actual development and discovery of battery and other storage related systems, and in that respect I wouldn't have much idea as to where to direct investments.

(I have a small holding in GSF).


rf,

My personal opinion is that the bulk of the value is currently going to the cell manufacturers, or system integrators, or at least those who are operating at the correct scale. I don't think the rest of the value chain is getting much value, apart from perhaps the operators, especially those operators that can thereby sidestep (avoid) other grid etc investments.

In system integrators an interesting propsition is the extent to which the management software can exist as a separate value layer, and which can be unbundled from the other elements. One player at that game is RES, a subsidiary of McAlpine, but since that is private company group you can't invest there. Personally I think that whilst it is an interesting approach it won't reach sufficient adoption/scale to be a viable pathway. Instead I expect the more vertically integrated offerings to dominate, and I think TSLA is winning much of the game.

regards, dspp

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#321030

Postby dspp » June 24th, 2020, 12:29 pm

Useful synopsis of the implications of the Tesla lithium chemistries and role of cobalt in the segments

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesl ... SKBN23U20Q

- dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#321301

Postby 88V8 » June 25th, 2020, 9:49 am

dspp wrote:Useful synopsis of the implications of the Tesla lithium chemistries and role of cobalt in the segments
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesl ... SKBN23U20Q

Is this mainly about locking in a cobalt supply, before someone else nabs it.

I wonder to what extent Tesla will support past generations of its batteries. Anecdotally, its early cars are not well supported in terms of parts and there is a year's waiting list for replacement batteries.
Perhaps in storage applications this would not matter, a battery is a battery is a battery.

V8

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#321343

Postby dspp » June 25th, 2020, 11:49 am

88V8 wrote:
dspp wrote:Useful synopsis of the implications of the Tesla lithium chemistries and role of cobalt in the segments
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesl ... SKBN23U20Q

Is this mainly about locking in a cobalt supply, before someone else nabs it.

I wonder to what extent Tesla will support past generations of its batteries. Anecdotally, its early cars are not well supported in terms of parts and there is a year's waiting list for replacement batteries.
Perhaps in storage applications this would not matter, a battery is a battery is a battery.

V8


Re 1: locking-in :
- Yes, I partially think so. In which case the hypothesis that the legacy auto would be able to dominate Tesla as things scaled is being challenged.
- But also it is a sign that Tesla will be targetting technology to market segment, much as legacy dino-juice do with say diesel vs petrol, or recip vs wankel.
- And of course it is also a risk mge exercise for Tesla in case the zero-cobalt or low-cobalt solutions don't work out.

Re 2: spares & service support :
- I hear a lot of FUD being thrown around by shorters and dino-juice die-hards. Listening to (and speaking with) actual Tesla owners what I hear is the converse.
- I keep my own ears to the ground on this, so as to keep challenging myself. It is easy to become lazy about assumptions. So far the general trend I observe is the converse of what you are saying.

Re 3: storage :
- Not all batteries are equal.
- This is just as true in stationary storage as in mobile.
- It does depend again which storage segment one is in, but nonetheless I tend to agree that stationary is a less challenging environment than mobile, so I partially agree.

regards, dspp

Itsallaguess
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Re: Storage stuff

#325928

Postby Itsallaguess » July 14th, 2020, 6:15 am

Looks like the UK is smoothing the way for an improved electrical storage infrastructure -

Government ministers hope to triple Britain’s energy storage capacity by relaxing the planning rules which threatened to stifle a nationwide battery boom.

The government will pass secondary legislation on Tuesday to allow large-scale energy storage projects to move ahead without the red tape and higher costs of navigating the national planning system.

Instead, large-scale battery developers will be able to apply for permission to build their energy storage projects using local planning rules, which are quicker and easier to manage.

The changes should help unleash a boom in large-scale batteries – those with a capacity of 50MW or more – which could help Britain make the most of its growing renewable energy resources as it works towards its climate targets.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/14/government-hopes-cut-in-red-tape-will-triple-uk-battery-capacity

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Storage stuff

#326019

Postby dspp » July 14th, 2020, 11:38 am

"Largest battery storage system in US connects to California ISO grid
2020 will see a rise of almost six times the storage capacity in ISO markets
FOLSOM, Calif. – The California Independent System Operator (ISO) connected the
largest battery storage resource in the nation to its power grid last month, signaling an
era of rapid battery growth for the ISO in the next several years.
The initial phase of LS Power Group’s Gateway Energy Storage Project in San Diego
County came online June 9, adding 62.5 megawatts (MW) of storage interconnection to
the ISO grid. The power grid, which serves about 80 percent of California and a small
portion of Nevada, currently has just over 216 MW of storage capacity in commercial
operation. If all planned projects in the interconnection queue are completed on
schedule, storage capacity will jump to 923 MW by the end of 2020, a six-fold rise from
136 MW at the beginning of the year. "


etc

http://www.caiso.com/Documents/LargestB ... SOGrid.pdf

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2 ... e-by-2021/

One of the 5 is RES, but I am not sure who the others are
RES is building one of the five lithium-ion projects SDG&E announced on Monday, a 30-megawatt facility expected to be completed by the end of next year at the SDG&E Miramar substation.

There is a lot more coming

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -next-year

- dspp

scotia
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Re: Storage stuff

#326035

Postby scotia » July 14th, 2020, 12:17 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
The changes should help unleash a boom in large-scale batteries – those with a capacity of 50MW or more – which could help Britain make the most of its growing renewable energy resources as it works towards its climate targets.


Ok - once again we are seeing a mis-understanding of a battery capacity. The quoted figure (from the Guardian) of 50MW tells us nothing about the battery storage capacity. A standard lead-acid car battery quoted as 12Volt, 60 Ampere hours has a capacity of 720Wh. Theoretically this can produce 50MW for about 50ms (milli-seconds). It is not a large scale battery!
The relevant figure that we need to know is MWh.

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Re: Storage stuff

#326038

Postby scotia » July 14th, 2020, 12:30 pm

dspp wrote:"Largest battery storage system in US connects to California ISO grid
2020 will see a rise of almost six times the storage capacity in ISO markets
FOLSOM, Calif. – The California Independent System Operator (ISO) connected the
largest battery storage resource in the nation to its power grid last month, signaling an
era of rapid battery growth for the ISO in the next several years.
The initial phase of LS Power Group’s Gateway Energy Storage Project in San Diego
County came online June 9, adding 62.5 megawatts (MW) of storage interconnection to
the ISO grid. The power grid, which serves about 80 percent of California and a small
portion of Nevada, currently has just over 216 MW of storage capacity in commercial
operation. If all planned projects in the interconnection queue are completed on
schedule, storage capacity will jump to 923 MW by the end of 2020, a six-fold rise from
136 MW at the beginning of the year. "


etc

http://www.caiso.com/Documents/LargestB ... SOGrid.pdf

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2 ... e-by-2021/

One of the 5 is RES, but I am not sure who the others are
RES is building one of the five lithium-ion projects SDG&E announced on Monday, a 30-megawatt facility expected to be completed by the end of next year at the SDG&E Miramar substation.

There is a lot more coming

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -next-year

- dspp

And I'm going to make the same comment on this report. The MW output does not measure the capacity of the energy stored in the battery.
I have no idea from this report as to what the energy storage is. A few car batteries and some fancy electronics could deliver the quoted power for a few milliseconds. OK - its unlikely to be as bad as that. But why is the appropriate figure of MWh not quoted? Is it because it is trivially small when compared to the need to iron-out long term fluctuations in massive wind-power installations? Does it compare with pumped-storage?

dspp
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Re: Storage stuff

#326088

Postby dspp » July 14th, 2020, 3:41 pm

scotia wrote:
dspp wrote:"Largest battery storage system in US connects to California ISO grid
2020 will see a rise of almost six times the storage capacity in ISO markets
FOLSOM, Calif. – The California Independent System Operator (ISO) connected the
largest battery storage resource in the nation to its power grid last month, signaling an
era of rapid battery growth for the ISO in the next several years.
The initial phase of LS Power Group’s Gateway Energy Storage Project in San Diego
County came online June 9, adding 62.5 megawatts (MW) of storage interconnection to
the ISO grid. The power grid, which serves about 80 percent of California and a small
portion of Nevada, currently has just over 216 MW of storage capacity in commercial
operation. If all planned projects in the interconnection queue are completed on
schedule, storage capacity will jump to 923 MW by the end of 2020, a six-fold rise from
136 MW at the beginning of the year. "


etc

http://www.caiso.com/Documents/LargestB ... SOGrid.pdf

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2 ... e-by-2021/

One of the 5 is RES, but I am not sure who the others are
RES is building one of the five lithium-ion projects SDG&E announced on Monday, a 30-megawatt facility expected to be completed by the end of next year at the SDG&E Miramar substation.

There is a lot more coming

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -next-year

- dspp

And I'm going to make the same comment on this report. The MW output does not measure the capacity of the energy stored in the battery.
I have no idea from this report as to what the energy storage is. A few car batteries and some fancy electronics could deliver the quoted power for a few milliseconds. OK - its unlikely to be as bad as that. But why is the appropriate figure of MWh not quoted? Is it because it is trivially small when compared to the need to iron-out long term fluctuations in massive wind-power installations? Does it compare with pumped-storage?



I agree that ideally we would get the MW x MWh numbers in the stories, as both are relevant metrics.

In the third link you will find some of these, (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -next-year)
--

[i]"NextEra Energy Resources will build three of the SCE projects, which are also the largest of the seven selected by the utility. Those include a 230-megawatt/920-megawatt-hour project connected to NextEra’s 250-megawatt McCoy solar farm, and two projects of 115 megawatts/460 megawatt-hours apiece adjacent to NextEra’s two Blythe Solar Energy Center solar farms. All are located in Riverside County.

The McCoy storage project is among the largest being developed by NextEra, just behind its 250-megawatt/1-gigawatt-hour system connected to its 250-megawatt Sonoran Energy Center in Arizona. It’s also the second-largest being built in California, behind the 300-megawatt/1.2-gigawatt-hour Moss Landing project to be built by Vistra Energy for Pacific Gas & Electric."


"Southern Power, a subsidiary of U.S. utility Southern Company, will develop two projects in California’s Central Valley connected to solar farms it owns: the 88-megawatt/352-megawatt-hour Garland project connected to a 200-megawatt solar farm in Kern County, and the 72 megawatt/288 megawatt-hour Tranquility project connected to a 200-megawatt solar farm in Fresno County.

The final project is Terra-Gen Power’s 50-megawatt/200-megawatt-hour Sanborn project in the Mojave Desert. That project will be interconnected with a solar project now in development by Sanborn Solar, meant to provide 300 megawatts of solar generation and up to 3 gigawatt-hours of storage capacity.

The sole project that won’t be interconnected with existing solar is LS Power’s 100-megawatt/400-megawatt-hour Gateway 1-2 battery system in San Diego County."

"Other large-scale projects announced in California in the past year include the 100-megawatt/400-megawatt-hour system being built by sPower for Clean Power Alliance, a community-choice aggregator serving the greater Los Angeles area, and up to 300 megawatts/1.2 gigawatt-hours of storage being built alongside 400 megawatts of solar power being built by 8Minute Energy for municipal utility Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. "[/i]

--
Scanning those these large scale storage systems appear to be being sized at about 4:1 MW:MWh, i.e. at max capacity they would give 4-hours. I'm sure they have been doing quite a lot of modelling and it is striking that they are all in the 4-5:1 range, so that would appear to be a sweet spot. There are enough of them that it may well become a rule of thumb to use when journalists only quote one number.

- dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#326144

Postby scotia » July 14th, 2020, 6:12 pm

dspp wrote:Scanning those these large scale storage systems appear to be being sized at about 4:1 MW:MWh, i.e. at max capacity they would give 4-hours. I'm sure they have been doing quite a lot of modelling and it is striking that they are all in the 4-5:1 range, so that would appear to be a sweet spot. There are enough of them that it may well become a rule of thumb to use when journalists only quote one number.

- dspp

Thanks for the links - and the 4:1 observed ratio may allow an educated guess when the MWh figure is missing.
The largest scheme at 1.2GWh is impressive - but is still a long way behind good old fashioned pump storage.
I'm intrigued by the name of the company building this scheme for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (LADWP) - namely 8 Minute Energy. I believe that LADWP supplies about 26TWh per annum or 0.4GWh in 8 minutes. So with 1.2GWh of storage, 8 minutes is a modest boast!

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Re: Storage stuff

#327714

Postby dspp » July 21st, 2020, 3:28 pm

"Tesla Energy’s Powerpack farm in South Australia recently set a new world record by delivering 150 MW of power to the region’s grid. The recently upgraded battery was able to accomplish this feat despite the installation still undergoing complex tests following its expansion from a 100MW/129MWh to a 150MW/194MWh system."

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery ... australia/

- dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#331022

Postby dspp » August 5th, 2020, 10:10 am

Concentrated solar thermal + molten salt energy storage bankrupt

"The owner of DOE-backed Crescent Dunes solar power project in Nevada has filed for bankruptcy. Developer Tonopah, a subsidiary of SolarReserve, signed a 25-year PPA with NV energy back in 2009, before the project was built. It was slated to the first concentrating solar power (CSP) projects paired with molten salt energy storage in the U.S. and was selling energy at a price of 13.5 cents per kilowatt-hour. (Today that price is closer to 3 or 4 cents per kWh).

Crescent Dunes uses mirrors to concentrate solar energy and use it to heat molten salt flowing through an approximately 640-foot tall solar power tower. The high temperature molten salt circulates from the tower to a storage tank, where it is then used to produce steam and generate electricity. Excess thermal energy is stored in the molten salt and in theory could be called upon at any time to create energy for up to 10 hours after the sun sets.

Various news outlets are reporting that the storage tanks were problematic from the start and the plant had stopped generating electricity in April of 2019."


https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/20 ... ews_letter

- dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#332379

Postby dspp » August 11th, 2020, 11:31 am

US EIA has a couple of notes out about battery storage trends, both showing steep growth. However looking at them the dataset doesn't seem to go further than 2018

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=44696
https://www.eia.gov/analysis/studies/el ... rystorage/

You have to dig into the underlying report to see more recent stuff to 2020
https://www.eia.gov/analysis/studies/el ... torage.pdf

That has (fig 12, p26; fig 13, p28) the 2020+ trends which are dramatic. Also when I read this it is game over for anything except lithium storage looking at the adoption trends.

regards, dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#332918

Postby dspp » August 13th, 2020, 2:06 pm

Thanks JohnKempReuters

"(Reuters) - European battery makers are gearing up to take advantage of massive “green” stimulus packages unveiled since the coronavirus pandemic though many acknowledge it will be tough to match the Asian giants that dominate the mainstream market."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-clima ... KKCN2590KN

- dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#333295

Postby 88V8 » August 14th, 2020, 8:07 pm

Stuff with as difference.
Bricks that store electricity.
https://newatlas.com/electronics/brick- ... 9-92456261
In the lab at present.
Potential, but perhaps not if the average builder gets his bodging hands on them.

V8

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Re: Storage stuff

#333364

Postby PeterGray » August 15th, 2020, 9:54 am

And when they stop working after the expected life of 30 years do you demolish the house?

And regular inspections to check the insulation is intact and no one is going to get incinerated putting a screw into the wrong place!

The tech is interesting, and might even find a home, but the idea that it can be used as a straight brick substitute in houses is laughable.

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Re: Storage stuff

#333469

Postby 88V8 » August 15th, 2020, 6:08 pm

PeterGray wrote:And when they stop working after the expected life of 30 years do you demolish the house?
And regular inspections to check the insulation is intact and no one is going to get incinerated putting a screw into the wrong place!
The tech is interesting, and might even find a home, but the idea that it can be used as a straight brick substitute in houses is laughable.

Haha!
Do modern houses have an expected life of 30 years?
And if they're the outer skin of a cavity wall they're safe from the nail and with a 3 volt potential the only thing they'll incinerate is a flea.

But yes, I'll believe it when I see it.

V8


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