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Storage stuff

Sorcery
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Re: Storage stuff

#384781

Postby Sorcery » February 8th, 2021, 2:48 pm

spasmodicus wrote:
Sorcery wrote:
Sorcery wrote:This is a technology I had not heard of before today, there is an article in the Telegraph today about it.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ox-tricks/

If you don't want to pay the subscription (it's only £1 a month to start with though) I found the company's website
https://infinitepower.life/about-us/

Sounds like it could be a game changer as they say. A vast improvement imho on acres of solar panels & windfarms or hydrogen storage.


Edited to add, the quote above is not strictly correct when it says there is no fission. It's using normal radioactive decay.



I struggle to see what's new about this. Maybe the use of a P-N junction to trap the radiated energy particles/waves, rather than a thermocouple, as in a conventional radioactive thermal cell of this kind, raises the efficiency. Why not just say so? NASA have been using isotope power in spacecraft for years, e.g. the Viking probes. More recently, NASA have been working on a Stirling cycle motor/generator powered in this way. The Soviet Union used radioisotope batteries for years to power lighthouses along their Arctic Sea coast.
The video is very coy about what radioisotope(s) they are using for the power source. Is there a problem in disposing of these things? They also use terms like "magnetron" when I think they might mean "microwave oven". Magnetrons are gnerally used to generate high power microwaves. What is their role in the manufacturing process of these cells?

sceptically,
S


Watch the "video" under the about menu. The rays being trapped include gamma rays & X rays which would not work on normal P-N junctions. The radio isotope being used (at the moment) is Cobalt 90. More information in the telegraph article including that it was first developed in the 50s. The company hopes to scale up to gigawatt capacity with the offer of being amazingly cheap.

From the telegraph article :
Infinite Power is eyeing different segments of the market, convinced it can outcompete fossil-fuel plants for electricity on a gigawatt scale. The technology works in much the same way as a solar panel except that the energy does not come from the sun. It comes from the decaying isotope.


excitedly, Steve

spasmodicus
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Re: Storage stuff

#384862

Postby spasmodicus » February 8th, 2021, 7:00 pm

Sorcery wrote:
spasmodicus wrote:
Sorcery wrote:
Edited to add, the quote above is not strictly correct when it says there is no fission. It's using normal radioactive decay.



I struggle to see what's new about this. Maybe the use of a P-N junction to trap the radiated energy particles/waves, rather than a thermocouple, as in a conventional radioactive thermal cell of this kind, raises the efficiency. Why not just say so? NASA have been using isotope power in spacecraft for years, e.g. the Viking probes. More recently, NASA have been working on a Stirling cycle motor/generator powered in this way. The Soviet Union used radioisotope batteries for years to power lighthouses along their Arctic Sea coast.
The video is very coy about what radioisotope(s) they are using for the power source. Is there a problem in disposing of these things? They also use terms like "magnetron" when I think they might mean "microwave oven". Magnetrons are gnerally used to generate high power microwaves. What is their role in the manufacturing process of these cells?

sceptically,
S


Watch the "video" under the about menu. The rays being trapped include gamma rays & X rays which would not work on normal P-N junctions. The radio isotope being used (at the moment) is Cobalt 90. More information in the telegraph article including that it was first developed in the 50s. The company hopes to scale up to gigawatt capacity with the offer of being amazingly cheap.

From the telegraph article :
Infinite Power is eyeing different segments of the market, convinced it can outcompete fossil-fuel plants for electricity on a gigawatt scale. The technology works in much the same way as a solar panel except that the energy does not come from the sun. It comes from the decaying isotope.


excitedly, Steve


Yes, I was trying to say that the P-N junction would maybe be configured to respond to the quite high energy gamma rays emitted by Cobalt 60 (Cobalt 90 has never been created as far as I know, but I did not hear them say in the video what isotope they are actually planning to use). Cobalt 60 is pretty nasty stuff.
Almost any radioactive source that emits enough energy to generate significant power presents plenty of problems for operational safety, disposal etc. Another problem, in applications where you have to stack lots of these batteries together in a big box, will be heat dissipation. Any radiated energy (gamma rays in the case of Cobalt 60) not converted into electric power will be disspated as heat within the battery structure and shielding. Whether you draw electric power from the battery or not, it will still be generating heat because you can't turn an isotope on and off at will.

I won't be investing, or putting a battery powered by cobalt 60 into my mobile phone any time soon.
S

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Re: Storage stuff

#384870

Postby Sorcery » February 8th, 2021, 8:03 pm

spasmodicus wrote:
Sorcery wrote:
spasmodicus wrote:

I struggle to see what's new about this. Maybe the use of a P-N junction to trap the radiated energy particles/waves, rather than a thermocouple, as in a conventional radioactive thermal cell of this kind, raises the efficiency. Why not just say so? NASA have been using isotope power in spacecraft for years, e.g. the Viking probes. More recently, NASA have been working on a Stirling cycle motor/generator powered in this way. The Soviet Union used radioisotope batteries for years to power lighthouses along their Arctic Sea coast.
The video is very coy about what radioisotope(s) they are using for the power source. Is there a problem in disposing of these things? They also use terms like "magnetron" when I think they might mean "microwave oven". Magnetrons are gnerally used to generate high power microwaves. What is their role in the manufacturing process of these cells?

sceptically,
S


Watch the "video" under the about menu. The rays being trapped include gamma rays & X rays which would not work on normal P-N junctions. The radio isotope being used (at the moment) is Cobalt 90. More information in the telegraph article including that it was first developed in the 50s. The company hopes to scale up to gigawatt capacity with the offer of being amazingly cheap.

From the telegraph article :
Infinite Power is eyeing different segments of the market, convinced it can outcompete fossil-fuel plants for electricity on a gigawatt scale. The technology works in much the same way as a solar panel except that the energy does not come from the sun. It comes from the decaying isotope.


excitedly, Steve


Yes, I was trying to say that the P-N junction would maybe be configured to respond to the quite high energy gamma rays emitted by Cobalt 60 (Cobalt 90 has never been created as far as I know, but I did not hear them say in the video what isotope they are actually planning to use). Cobalt 60 is pretty nasty stuff.
Almost any radioactive source that emits enough energy to generate significant power presents plenty of problems for operational safety, disposal etc. Another problem, in applications where you have to stack lots of these batteries together in a big box, will be heat dissipation. Any radiated energy (gamma rays in the case of Cobalt 60) not converted into electric power will be disspated as heat within the battery structure and shielding. Whether you draw electric power from the battery or not, it will still be generating heat because you can't turn an isotope on and off at will.

I won't be investing, or putting a battery powered by cobalt 60 into my mobile phone any time soon.
S


Yes Cobalt 60, my typo rather than from the article. A short half life of 5.3 years. The video showed them assembling the boxes and proving it works with a light bulb. Assuming it's not a con, no hidden batteries or external power supply, and the output could be easily measured and is as advertised, it seems then it's possible it could solve all our energy needs. Ambrose (the author of the telegraph article) talks about it being useful as a battery which it really is not, it's more like a modular power station without all the containment problems and waste of a conventional nuclear power station. Best not to use it as backup for wind & solar, but a replacement.
The article stressed that the Cobalt 59 as normally dug up would have to be bombarded with neutrons in a conventional nuclear power plant,to convert it to Cobalt 60 but that it could be recycled back to Cobalt 60 once output fell enough to make it worthwhile. Not exactly sure how they seperate it from the Nickel which is a by product of Cobalt 60 decay.

Mr McLeod said the isotope can be recycled again and again by putting it back in a reactor every ten years. By then the isotopes have partly decayed into nickel. There are almost no operating costs once the system is up and running.


The heat problem could perhaps be solved by control rods and water as a coolant as per existing nuclear electricity stations.

Found an article or two that may be of interest,
RTG Radioisotope thermoelectric generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisot ... _generator
Direct conversion of gamma rays to electricity https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 7E28DD10A7
An oldish article, as I understand it the Infinite Power device would have to be more advanced and produce considerably more electricity.

I would like to know more before investing. I have emailed them to ask how I invest. Government according to Ambrose is interested in it.

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Re: Storage stuff

#385272

Postby Reactive » February 9th, 2021, 10:16 pm

I posted this in the "Share ideas" sub-forum when it probably would have been better to have posted it here:

Just seen this news about AMTE Power listing:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/business ... -car-boom/

Sounds like this company has a potential if they get their battery technology production right. I guess Ilika plc is the only UK listed equivalent company I can find. I'd be grateful to hear peoples thoughts, especially those with knowledge of this sector.

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Re: Storage stuff

#385332

Postby dspp » February 10th, 2021, 9:44 am

Reactive wrote:I posted this in the "Share ideas" sub-forum when it probably would have been better to have posted it here:

Just seen this news about AMTE Power listing:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/business ... -car-boom/

Sounds like this company has a potential if they get their battery technology production right. I guess Ilika plc is the only UK listed equivalent company I can find. I'd be grateful to hear peoples thoughts, especially those with knowledge of this sector.


Sceptical in the extreme from where I sit, regarding AMTE. If you go to https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-5323958 * you will find a table I put together which includes global vehicle battery cell usage and growth. (The stationary storage sector is much smaller, for example TSLA's storage usage was 5.4% of their 2020 vehicle usage, and I think they are the world leader in storage). I struggle to see how or where AMTE could be significant given this context, and since scale does matter I don't think long term survival and return of capital are even a high probability vs BYD, PAE, CATL, LG, TSLA, Northvolt, etc.

I am happy for someone to make the counter case.

regards, dspp

(* not posted on TLF due to changes to TLF Ts & Cs)

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Re: Storage stuff

#385414

Postby Reactive » February 10th, 2021, 2:18 pm

dspp wrote:
Reactive wrote:I posted this in the "Share ideas" sub-forum when it probably would have been better to have posted it here:

Just seen this news about AMTE Power listing:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/business ... -car-boom/

Sounds like this company has a potential if they get their battery technology production right. I guess Ilika plc is the only UK listed equivalent company I can find. I'd be grateful to hear peoples thoughts, especially those with knowledge of this sector.


Sceptical in the extreme from where I sit, regarding AMTE. If you go to https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-5323958 * you will find a table I put together which includes global vehicle battery cell usage and growth. (The stationary storage sector is much smaller, for example TSLA's storage usage was 5.4% of their 2020 vehicle usage, and I think they are the world leader in storage). I struggle to see how or where AMTE could be significant given this context, and since scale does matter I don't think long term survival and return of capital are even a high probability vs BYD, PAE, CATL, LG, TSLA, Northvolt, etc.

I am happy for someone to make the counter case.

regards, dspp

(* not posted on TLF due to changes to TLF Ts & Cs)

Thank you for your reply and appreciate your thoughts and link to your table, very interesting reading. I had a look on their website and they appear to make bigger noises about their work in the Oil & Gas sector (which would make sense given their location) but isn't really mentioned in the article.

I guess there's a lot of hype around being the next Tesla in terms of battery/energy storage.

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Re: Storage stuff

#387199

Postby dspp » February 16th, 2021, 2:44 pm

What are big batteries and how could they reshape the electricity grid?
Australia’s first “big” battery worked so well there are now more than 40 built or planned across the country. How do these batteries work?


https://www.theage.com.au/national/what ... 571qm.html

"At the time of its construction the Hornsdale big battery, built by Tesla for the renewable energy company Neoen, had a capacity of 100 megawatts, though it has since been expanded to 150 megawatts. Today, there are more than 40 big batteries either completed or planned with a total capacity of more than 7000 megawatts across Australia."

"the Australian energy system is being transformed at twice the rate of comparable systems overseas, and big batteries have proven themselves to be crucial to the transformation."

"The economics [of solar PV] had already become clear to Australian households, which have been sticking photovoltaic panels on their homes faster than any other nation on earth. The Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) estimates that between one in five and one in four homes in Australia now has solar panels, and demand for them is yet to slow........ Large-scale wind and solar farms are on the rise, too. At the end of 2018, large-scale solar farms in Australia generated more than 1824 megawatts, while in 2019 a further 61 large-scale solar farms were added"

"the falling cost of grid-scale batteries is changing the fundamental principles of the electricity grid and the multi-billion-dollar transmission lines holding it together. “The case to build a whole lot of energy generation in one state and ship it to another isn’t there any more,” ............. “We can say for sure now that battery storage is much cheaper than transmission lines and that case is only likely to grow,” "


etc, dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#387207

Postby 88V8 » February 16th, 2021, 3:06 pm

Ghastly Middle Eastern holiday resort, but solar / wind-powered and with inbuilt 1000MWh battery.

'The project on the west coast of Saudi Arabia, which spans 10,800 sq miles and will include fifty hotels when complete, will be powered solely by wind and solar energy' says a press release from the Red Sea Development Company.
'The complex will rely on a battery storage facility of 1,000 MWh. Battery storage will provide power at night when solar generation is not possible, and ensure supply in the case of outages due to faults or sandstorms. The blend of solar and wind generation will also offer a reliable supply of energy.'


https://www.theredsea.sa/en#

Suppose that all new UK housing developments had to be entirely self-powered. BoJo talks the talk but will he make builders walk the walk.

V8

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Re: Storage stuff

#387410

Postby spasmodicus » February 17th, 2021, 10:58 am

88V8 wrote:Ghastly Middle Eastern holiday resort, but solar / wind-powered and with inbuilt 1000MWh battery.



but you'd need a pretty big battery or other storage solution to get round this kind of problem?
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Texas-Freeze-Raises-Cost-Of-Charging-A-Tesla-To-900.html

Not that there's much likelihood of freeze-ups in the Middle East, but it could happen here. Solar panels probably don't work very efficiently with a layer of snow on them, either.

One of Texas' problems is that its grid is not connected very well to neighbouring states, because their utilities did not want federal interference with their affairs.

S

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Re: Storage stuff

#387435

Postby dspp » February 17th, 2021, 11:59 am

spasmodicus wrote:Solar panels probably don't work very efficiently with a layer of snow on them, either.
S


The slightest bit of sunlight getting onto a scrap of solar panel produces a little bit of electricity, as well as the straight heating effect on the dark surface. That electricity then flows through the silicon that is still under the snow and, due to the electrical resistance of the silcon, heats up the other areas of the panel. This in turn melts a bit of snow, further clearing the panel and it all tends to go very fast from that point onwards. The water lubrication, the clean surface, and the angle all generally cause the rest to slide off at some point rather than melt off. This is why, if you fly over a solar array after snowfall, you will so often see the panels themselves are completely clear and stand out like sparkling back diamonds in a white landscape.

regards, dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#387453

Postby Pipsmum » February 17th, 2021, 12:58 pm

Cornish Metals started trading yesterday the 16th Feb 2021. I've been watching them with interest for a long while since they were Strongbow Exploration. Potentially very interesting.

https://www.cornishmetals.com

https://www.internationaltin.org/cornish-metals/

https://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/A ... d-ipo.aspx

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Re: Storage stuff

#387458

Postby spasmodicus » February 17th, 2021, 1:12 pm

dspp wrote:
spasmodicus wrote:Solar panels probably don't work very efficiently with a layer of snow on them, either.
S


The slightest bit of sunlight getting onto a scrap of solar panel produces a little bit of electricity, as well as the straight heating effect on the dark surface. That electricity then flows through the silicon that is still under the snow and, due to the electrical resistance of the silcon, heats up the other areas of the panel. This in turn melts a bit of snow, further clearing the panel and it all tends to go very fast from that point onwards. The water lubrication, the clean surface, and the angle all generally cause the rest to slide off at some point rather than melt off. This is why, if you fly over a solar array after snowfall, you will so often see the panels themselves are completely clear and stand out like sparkling back diamonds in a white landscape.

regards, dspp


Thanks for putting me right, dspp, I would never have guessed that self clearing effect! One of my colleagues in Houston is staying with his sister in law, while the family home still has no power and a burst pipe as well. :(

regards,
S

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Re: Storage stuff

#387471

Postby dspp » February 17th, 2021, 1:56 pm

spasmodicus wrote:
dspp wrote:
spasmodicus wrote:Solar panels probably don't work very efficiently with a layer of snow on them, either.
S


The slightest bit of sunlight getting onto a scrap of solar panel produces a little bit of electricity, as well as the straight heating effect on the dark surface. That electricity then flows through the silicon that is still under the snow and, due to the electrical resistance of the silcon, heats up the other areas of the panel. This in turn melts a bit of snow, further clearing the panel and it all tends to go very fast from that point onwards. The water lubrication, the clean surface, and the angle all generally cause the rest to slide off at some point rather than melt off. This is why, if you fly over a solar array after snowfall, you will so often see the panels themselves are completely clear and stand out like sparkling back diamonds in a white landscape.

regards, dspp


Thanks for putting me right, dspp, I would never have guessed that self clearing effect! One of my colleagues in Houston is staying with his sister in law, while the family home still has no power and a burst pipe as well. :(

regards,
S


That's OK. A good place to stand after snowfall is NOT under a roof full of solar panels !

I think there will be a lot of folk in Texas trying to buy Tesla Powerwalls to go with their solar PV so as to be able to keep their own lights on. The Powerwall has a UPS-style facility. Unfortunately (!!) demand is well beyonf Tesla's ability to supply so I don't think prices will be dropping for a while, in fact Tesla have raised their Powerwall prices over the years. Those same folk will be asking what ERCOT was up to that got them into such a mess, and the answer includes my viewtopic.php?p=387041#p387041 .

regards, dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#387489

Postby dspp » February 17th, 2021, 3:39 pm

"Pumped-storage hydroelectric facilities in the U.S. operated with an average monthly round-trip efficiency of 79%, and the utility-scale battery fleet operated at 82%, according to 2019 data"

"Pumped-storage facilities are the largest energy storage resource in the U.S. The facilities collectively account for 21.9 GW of capacity .......In recent years, utility-scale battery capacity has grown rapidly as costs have decreased. Batteries have become the second-largest source of electricity storage. As of Nov. 20, 2020, utility-scale battery capacity had 1.4 GW of operational capacity. Another 4 GW of battery capacity is scheduled to come online in 2021,"


https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/st ... 2021-02-17

https://www.hydroreview.com/technology- ... f-u-s-mix/

- dspp

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Re: Storage stuff

#387510

Postby 88V8 » February 17th, 2021, 4:43 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Hmmm, struggling with that. A large centrifugal pump, pumping the water uphill operating at best efficiency point would be about 80% efficient. Efficiency on the way back down? I don't know but it isn't going to be anywhere close to 100%

But if the unit cost on the way up is less than the unit income on the way down, then the financially moderated efficiency ........

From what I read online, no significant new pumped storage has been built in the US for many years.
I suspect that batteries will make it another form of dinosaur.

V8

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Re: Storage stuff

#387529

Postby Johnspenceuk » February 17th, 2021, 5:29 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
88V8 wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Hmmm, struggling with that. A large centrifugal pump, pumping the water uphill operating at best efficiency point would be about 80% efficient. Efficiency on the way back down? I don't know but it isn't going to be anywhere close to 100%

But if the unit cost on the way up is less than the unit income on the way down, then the financially moderated efficiency ........

From what I read online, no significant new pumped storage has been built in the US for many years.
I suspect that batteries will make it another form of dinosaur.

V8

Monetary efficiency then, not engineering efficiency? Being an engineer I didn't realise that.

In the UK, Dinorwic was the last one built that I know of. It's an incredible facility to visit. Luckily, I visited with IMechE so got to see much more than the general public would see on a visit.

RVF


I remember Dinorwic being built reading about in Construction News. There are another 2 in Scotland Cruahan & Loch Mhor does it not make sense using excess generation overnight to pump water back up to supplement peak demand? I thought that was the reason Dinorwic was built.

John

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Re: Storage stuff

#387631

Postby daveh » February 18th, 2021, 8:56 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:You are correct. Though Dinorwic is the daddy of them all by some margin. Round the corner there's the Ffestiniog pump storage hydro too. All the facilities are now pretty ancient. Even Dinorwic, which I still think of as nearly new is now in middle age. There's a couple of issues though. Nobody will invest in power generation assets for the very long term any more. CEGB had no issues with such investments. That's what they were there for. It's doubtful any viable locations are available now. Plus, there's massively more nimbyism about things like that these days which would certainly prevent another Dinorwic ever being built. I think that's all really rather sad.

RVF


SSE have one planned near Lochaber:
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/ba ... heme/#gref

I thought they had one planned for the Loch Ness area, but so far haven't found any info, so I may have just misremembered the Coire Glas one above.
Not sure what stage Coire Glas is at - the article says they have received permission - no idea if it will go ahead.

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Re: Storage stuff

#387662

Postby 88V8 » February 18th, 2021, 10:20 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:What a crying shame.

Yes, it's a shame that batteries are going to replace mechanicals in this and other respects.
No more power stations, no more ICE.
Just soulless lumps of chemicals.

It would all be so much more fun if we generated our own power with a reciprocating steam set.
And better for the nation's health if we had to generate it with static bicycles.

Batteries. EVs. A new age. I preferred the old one.

V8

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Re: Storage stuff

#387679

Postby daveh » February 18th, 2021, 11:22 am

dspp wrote:
That's OK. A good place to stand after snowfall is NOT under a roof full of solar panels !

I think there will be a lot of folk in Texas trying to buy Tesla Powerwalls to go with their solar PV so as to be able to keep their own lights on. The Powerwall has a UPS-style facility. Unfortunately (!!) demand is well beyonf Tesla's ability to supply so I don't think prices will be dropping for a while, in fact Tesla have raised their Powerwall prices over the years. Those same folk will be asking what ERCOT was up to that got them into such a mess, and the answer includes my viewtopic.php?p=387041#p387041 .

regards, dspp


And according to the BBC the Republicans (whose last President was responsible for blocking Scientific research into grid resilience as per dspp's link) are blaming wind turbines - some of which froze in the cold temperatures, forgetting to mention that a larger amount of gas, coal and nuclear went off generation than renewable power.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-56085733
On Tuesday, the state's principal energy supplier, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas (Ercot), said the freezing conditions had led to:

30GW being taken offline from gas, coal and nuclear sources
a 16GW loss in capacity in wind and other renewable energy supplies

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Re: Storage stuff

#387937

Postby Toto » February 19th, 2021, 11:57 am

Dspp I really would appreciate your insight. I’m new here. Just joined. Still not quite sure how the board works. :?


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