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Hydrogen matters

spasmodicus
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#435429

Postby spasmodicus » August 17th, 2021, 4:11 pm

At the same time, it seems daft to use electricity to generate hydrogen by electrolysis, efficiency 80% if you’re lucky, and then send it down pipes, where a few percent more of that energy is lost in leaks, only to burn it in a boiler where, even in the most efficient case of condensing boilers, another 1 or 2% is lost to the exhaust. OK, I know, hydrogen can be stored and used later, but the electricity could be used directly in old-school storage heaters.

Even dafter when energy falling on your roof as sunlight is converted to electricity in an expensive pv panel (efficiency maybe 25%) and stored in an even more expensive battery (charge discharge cycle loss probably around 10%?) or fed into the grid, only to be used ultimately to heat water in an immersion heater, or, wait for it, electrolyse water to make hydrogen.

It seems to me that the politicians are often so blinded by the wonders of “green” technology that they forget about simple low-tech stuff like insulating our homes properly or repairing the leaks in the existing gas distribution system.

S
PS I recently paid for improving the insulation in my roof myself, because it seemed to make sense. Needless to say, it proved impossible to access the UK gov's pathetically badly thought out and ludicrously bureaucratic Green Homes grants scheme.
PPS Despite all of the above, I bought a modest holding in Ceres Power CWR a while back. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

scrumpyjack
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#435431

Postby scrumpyjack » August 17th, 2021, 4:20 pm

I thought the idea of having the wind generators using electricity for hydrogen production was that it would be when the grid didn't need it and might be having to pay them not to produce electricity? In that event the electricity is effectively free.

Hallucigenia
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#435432

Postby Hallucigenia » August 17th, 2021, 4:23 pm

BEIS have launched their UK Hydrogen Strategy :
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... n-strategy

Seems fairly sensible on the face of it - and not before time, hydrogen becomes a lot more important when your target is net zero rather than an x% reduction in total emissions.

Some of the comms around it is weird - trumpeting about 3m homes heating with hydrogen by 2030, when the document actually says a decision on blending will be taken in 2023 and on full heating in 2026, with the possibility of a town-size trial by 2030 - enough to get a good idea of the real-world economics without going too far down what will probably be a dead-end.

Hallucigenia
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#435440

Postby Hallucigenia » August 17th, 2021, 4:44 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:I thought the idea of having the wind generators using electricity for hydrogen production was that it would be when the grid didn't need it and might be having to pay them not to produce electricity? In that event the electricity is effectively free.


The question is not so much about the generating hydrogen bit - today's strategy calls for hydrogen production on the same scale as current UK electricity production - but what you do with it.

Things like heating are probably going to be relatively minor uses for hydrogen (with the caveat that there's some big binary decisions coming in 2023 and 2026 on blending and 100% heating in the UK), but a lot of hydrogen will be needed for industrial processes which don't have many good alternatives. See Michael Liebreich's ladder of hydrogen priorities :
Image

88V8
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#436176

Postby 88V8 » August 20th, 2021, 10:17 am

Hallucigenia wrote:....a lot of hydrogen will be needed for industrial processes which don't have many good alternatives. See Michael Liebreich's ladder of hydrogen priorities ...

Report from that unbiased source the Graunaid

Oil companies have used false claims over the cost of producing fossil fuel hydrogen to win over the Treasury and access billions in taxpayer subsidies, according to the outgoing hydrogen lobby boss.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/20/oil-firms-made-false-claims-on-blue-hydrogen-costs-says-ex-lobby-boss
“I believe passionately that I would be betraying future generations by remaining silent on that fact that blue hydrogen is at best an expensive distraction, and at worst a lock-in for continued fossil fuel use that guarantees we will fail to meet our decarbonisation goals”

To be continued, no doubt.

Meanwhile if you want a hydrogen punt, more steam behind ITM Power (ITM)

Citi analysts kept their recommendation for shares of ITM Power at 'buy/high risk' after its joint-venture partner, Linde, inked a deal for the British company's technology with chipmaker Infineon.
Citi said the move further opened up a "potentially significant" end market for green hydrogen in general and for PEM electrolyser technology in particular.
The agreement also "positively affirmed" the JV with Linde, "creating further opportunities for ITM with large, credible industry leaders such as Infineon."
Under the terms of the deal, Linde would build a 2MW electrolyser plant using ITM's technology at Infineon's Villach site in Austria.

Source... ADVFN

V8

Hallucigenia
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#436197

Postby Hallucigenia » August 20th, 2021, 11:26 am

88V8 wrote:Report from that unbiased source the Graunaid


You can't shoot the messenger when they're making direct quotes from the now ex-head of the UK H2 & Fuel Cell Association (and boss of Protium, who project-manage hydrogen projects).

It's a complicated mix of engineering, finance, project management etc with no clearcut answers, but given that blue hydrogen will need subsidies out to at least 2030 and the rapid rollout of renewables, he's probably right that you might as well just use grey hydrogen as the bridge and then go straight to green.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#436414

Postby 88V8 » August 21st, 2021, 11:01 am

88V8 wrote:...ITM Power...
They are also involved in the UK pilot of feeding hydrogen into the gas mains in a town in the northeast. The feed is 20% which is near the maximum that can be burned in a standard gas appliance.
https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-tra ... -1-1045075

Well, it happened and presumably is still happening.
Effective 4th August.
Times (print) the residents did not know that on Wednesday they became guinea pigs... the company said the residents would not have noticed any difference and did not tell them when the the trial was starting in part out of fear that it would be blamed for any boiler problems. The feed began at 2% and will increase over the coming days to 20%.

If no one is blown up, it will no doubt be declared a success and repeated elsewhere at 20%.
For sure, no one is going to replace the existing gas pipe network, let alone start repiping customers' homes or for that matter replacing their appliances, so we would need to use the existing hardware.
I think quite a lot hangs on this:
The notion that we can go all-electric for heating and HW, and at the same time power a fleet of new EVs, is just fanciful.
So if you hear nothing over the next few weeks about explosions in Newcastle, no news is good news.

I suppose I'll have a dabble with ITM, just a nibble.

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