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Hydrogen matters

dspp
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379852

Postby dspp » January 22nd, 2021, 10:49 pm

Sorcery wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
johnhemming wrote:


I wonder what sort of leakage would occur from an old gas field?

You aren't the only one wondering that. My guess is that Centrica's main interest here is avoiding having to pay to decommission Rough.

RVF


Yes, I suspect Centrica are salivating at the heroin of subsidy dependency. Perfectly good company (British Gas) sacrificed on the altar of the green blob. Personally I avoid investing in any company that relies on subsidies. I don't think government knows how to run or invest in companies or subsidise them, and I don't think it should.

I really don't like the direction of travel, green ought to be a consideration, but a religion?


1. Centrica have been clutching at any straw for many decades in renewables, generally with the hope of 'proving' they are impossible.
2. If they were ever a perfectly good company in upstream it certainly wasn't during my time, nor those of my predecessors.
3. (john) Is there a particular reason for you asking ? There are indeed potential & actual leakage paths, but it all depends on the specifics.

regards, dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379885

Postby johnhemming » January 23rd, 2021, 8:57 am

dspp wrote:1. Centrica have been clutching at any straw for many decades in renewables, generally with the hope of 'proving' they are impossible.
2. If they were ever a perfectly good company in upstream it certainly wasn't during my time, nor those of my predecessors.
3. (john) Is there a particular reason for you asking ? There are indeed potential & actual leakage paths, but it all depends on the specifics.

Its more of a rhetorical question really although I would be interested in the answer as to what extent the rocks that form Rough are permeable to H₂.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#379886

Postby johnhemming » January 23rd, 2021, 9:00 am

dspp wrote:Hydro-Quebec may have a point with this project. If they can convert excess hydro (that cannot squeeze down their bottlenecked grid to the main consumption centres at the time when demand exists) into bio-synthetic-jet-fuel then they simultaneously get a product that commands a premium price, and can time-shift otherwise lost waterpower via a stable/storeable medium for subsequent sale. One would need to dig through the details that we will not have access to in order to form a view as to whether they may have their sums (economics & engineering) right on this one.


That's a fair point if it is a good route from electricity to hydrocarbons then it does enable a useful type of energy storage. Although for a while I ran my car on rapeseed oil I don't see that as that effective a sustainable route for producing a lot of hydrocarbons. It is not really so much an integrated hydrogen economy, however.

dspp
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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380050

Postby dspp » January 23rd, 2021, 6:16 pm

johnhemming wrote:
dspp wrote:Hydro-Quebec may have a point with this project. If they can convert excess hydro (that cannot squeeze down their bottlenecked grid to the main consumption centres at the time when demand exists) into bio-synthetic-jet-fuel then they simultaneously get a product that commands a premium price, and can time-shift otherwise lost waterpower via a stable/storeable medium for subsequent sale. One would need to dig through the details that we will not have access to in order to form a view as to whether they may have their sums (economics & engineering) right on this one.


That's a fair point if it is a good route from electricity to hydrocarbons then it does enable a useful type of energy storage. Although for a while I ran my car on rapeseed oil I don't see that as that effective a sustainable route for producing a lot of hydrocarbons. It is not really so much an integrated hydrogen economy, however.


I think HydroQuebec might be a good pilot project for some other similar areas (Norway, BC, Chile, maybe Urals) but I'd have to dig around a bit. If liquid aviation fuel can be made from hydro via this pathway then it is interesting.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380064

Postby GrahamPlatt » January 23rd, 2021, 6:58 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Catalytic hydrogen production. Fascinating.

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/cat ... .article#/

RVF


If that really does work (note last paragraph), this is a turning point.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380102

Postby dspp » January 23rd, 2021, 10:52 pm

GrahamPlatt wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Catalytic hydrogen production. Fascinating.

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/cat ... .article#/

RVF


If that really does work (note last paragraph), this is a turning point.


What is almost as interesting is where the research is being done. Those who think the Chinese can only do copycat are a few decades out of date.

regards, dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380148

Postby johnhemming » January 24th, 2021, 8:57 am

GrahamPlatt wrote:If that really does work (note last paragraph), this is a turning point.

I am curious as to why you would say this.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380173

Postby johnhemming » January 24th, 2021, 10:11 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
johnhemming wrote:
GrahamPlatt wrote:If that really does work (note last paragraph), this is a turning point.

I am curious as to why you would say this.

Perhaps....... Present H2 generation technology is highly energy intensive. If you can basically generate it at room temperature from a bucket of water with a catalyst then that might well be a game changer. However, I have lost count a long time ago at the number of process technology game changers I have seen over the years that quietly get forgotten about.


I read the article as requiring Carbon Monoxide rather than CO₂

That needs to come from somewhere.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380184

Postby PeterGray » January 24th, 2021, 10:29 am

And the process, as well as requiring a CO source, produces CO2, which you presumably then electrochemically turn back to CO and O2,
for example like this: https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606

No idea what the supply of electical energy requred for the processes would be, but something tells me it's likely not to be less than straightforward hydrolysis.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380191

Postby jackdaww » January 24th, 2021, 10:37 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
johnhemming wrote:
GrahamPlatt wrote:If that really does work (note last paragraph), this is a turning point.

I am curious as to why you would say this.

Perhaps....... Present H2 generation technology is highly energy intensive. If you can basically generate it at room temperature from a bucket of water with a catalyst then that might well be a game changer. However, I have lost count a long time ago at the number of process technology game changers I have seen over the years that quietly get forgotten about.

RVF


====================================

sorry if i have missed this earlier ..

where does all this water come from ?

:?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380197

Postby johnhemming » January 24th, 2021, 10:49 am

PeterGray wrote:And the process, as well as requiring a CO source, produces CO2, which you presumably then electrochemically turn back to CO and O2,
for example like this: https://www.pnas.org/content/109/39/15606

No idea what the supply of electical energy requred for the processes would be, but something tells me it's likely not to be less than straightforward hydrolysis.


The argument might be to take coal and water, get some CO and H₂ (and probably CO₂ as well)

Then create some more H₂ and CO

Capture all the CO₂ (Which is not something I think is generally effective although there are uses).

It still does not compute to me.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380208

Postby johnhemming » January 24th, 2021, 11:11 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:It usually comes from steam reformers. As a byproduct of making.........
Hydrogen.

fair point.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380242

Postby jackdaww » January 24th, 2021, 12:35 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
jackdaww wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Perhaps....... Present H2 generation technology is highly energy intensive. If you can basically generate it at room temperature from a bucket of water with a catalyst then that might well be a game changer. However, I have lost count a long time ago at the number of process technology game changers I have seen over the years that quietly get forgotten about.

RVF


====================================

sorry if i have missed this earlier ..

where does all this water come from ?

:?

The same place you'd get it from if you were running an electrolyser hydrogen production facility.

RVF


==========================

and where is that ?

and how long will supplies last ?

:)

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380325

Postby tjh290633 » January 24th, 2021, 4:38 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:CO is actually pretty difficult stuff to work with. It's pretty active (as well as deadly) and is always trying to turn itself into carbon and CO2. It's awful stuff.

RVF

I don't recall the town's gas industry having too many problems with blue water gas.

TJH

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#380340

Postby tjh290633 » January 24th, 2021, 5:40 pm

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:CO is actually pretty difficult stuff to work with. It's pretty active (as well as deadly) and is always trying to turn itself into carbon and CO2. It's awful stuff.

RVF

I don't recall the town's gas industry having too many problems with blue water gas.

TJH

Try compressing it as we do when using CO in chemical processes. I presume back as towns gas, it was made and distributed at low pressure so wouldn't have experienced the issues you get with industrial uses of the gas. But CO is just as deadly in towns gas as it is when generated any other way. I suppose those who worked in the industry understood to treat the stuff with the respect it calls for. I have worked on a lot of stuff like hydrogen cyanide, phosgene, hydrogen fluoride etc.... plants. The idea is to to keep the nasty stuff on the inside of the plant equipment!

RVF

Of course back in those days it was the medium of choice for many a suicide, either the gas oven or the car exhaust.

It was low pressure, but syngas is usually high pressure, Lurgi process for example.

TJH

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#381182

Postby dspp » January 27th, 2021, 11:55 am

Well, you can't accuse these folks of being shy,

"Hydrogen is Big Oil’s Last Grand Scam
............. So why did hydrogen receive so much attention in 2020 when no hydrogen-powered technology company had any significant breakout, and the transition away from conventional internal combustion engine vehicles appears to strongly favor EVs? This is a curious situation, as major fossil fuel companies have been asking governments around the world for Covid-19 stimulus funding to invest in hydrogen technology production."

https://www.jadecove.com/research/hydrogenscam

- dspp

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382095

Postby JohnB » January 29th, 2021, 8:59 pm

I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382118

Postby Sorcery » January 29th, 2021, 10:37 pm

JohnB wrote:I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.


So, "pantograph" while sounding very horny, is it different to "normal" ?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382120

Postby Nimrod103 » January 29th, 2021, 11:00 pm

JohnB wrote:I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.


The future is a trolleybus. Who would have guessed?

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Re: Hydrogen matters

#382123

Postby mc2fool » January 29th, 2021, 11:27 pm

Sorcery wrote:
JohnB wrote:I thought you might find this detailed article on TfLs experience with Hydrogen for London buses. https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gen-buses/

They keep plugging away, but for transport in a city where an electricity supply is always close at hand, I'd agree with the comments that keep returning to batteries as being best for buses, with a bit of pantograph recharging thrown in.


So, "pantograph" while sounding very horny, is it different to "normal" ?

Pantograph recharging: The pantograph is the retractable mechanism sticking up from the top of the bus.

Image
http://www.stemmann.com/en/products/charging_systems/chargingpanto_for_e_busses


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