Is Hydrogen going to run our large vehicles?

[gryffron]

Hydrogen was touted as a wonder gas for airships too.

It will only take one similar spectacular disaster and Hydrogen will be off the menu for another 80 years.

Gryff

[Mike4]

Hydrogen was touted as a wonder gas for airships too.

It will only take one similar spectacular disaster and Hydrogen will be off the menu for another 80 years.

Gryff

A good point but if the first conflagration happens after the infrastructure has been broadly put in place and we are highly committed to it, I suspect the focus will switch to ways to reduce the risk of continuing to use it rather than scrapping it altogether.

[gryffron]

Railways aren't even allowed to run petrol vehicles. They have to be diesel because of the fire risk.

When the NER railcar was restored, it had to be changed from petrol to diesel for this reason.

So they won't allow petrol, but they will allow hydrogen? Even for passenger trains. Crazy.

Gryff

[johnhemming]

A good point but if the first conflagration happens after the infrastructure has been broadly put in place and we are highly committed to it, I suspect the focus will switch to ways to reduce the risk of continuing to use it rather than scrapping it altogether.

There is an issue with trains as to how heavy the trains now are and how much energy is required to move them around as result. Additional weight is unlikely to help. However, I still cannot see Hydrogen being that useful as an energy storage mechanism apart from in niche situations.

[dspp]

A good point but if the first conflagration happens after the infrastructure has been broadly put in place and we are highly committed to it, I suspect the focus will switch to ways to reduce the risk of continuing to use it rather than scrapping it altogether.

There is an issue with trains as to how heavy the trains now are and how much energy is required to move them around as result. Additional weight is unlikely to help. However, I still cannot see Hydrogen being that useful as an energy storage mechanism apart from in niche situations.

John,

As a dedicated storage and/or a dedicated transportation fuel I don't think H2 is going to be attractive vs batteries. There are two partial exceptions to this:

i) Big metallurgical/petrochemical complexes require syngas and they are quite likely to run hydrogen into these. The acreage involved is quite significant: think Teesside or the Ruhr or Galveston and so there are very extensive pipeline networks all over these areas that can be adapted. A lot of these processes are very difficult to accomplish in a pure electrical manner. Off the back of that one may get some localised cargo trucking, and that seems to be a viable niche.

ii) Long haul large aircraft. I expect batteries to work their way into aviation from the bottom up as the kWh/kg improves, and this is already happening in GA and of course in UAV. There is a possibility that Earth-to-Earth Starship (Space-X) may delete long haul aviation from top down, and again Starship is intended to be renewables-based. Oh and TGVs will take a chunk out from the side, and that is of course electrified.

regards, dspp

[johnhemming]

I looked at manufacturing electric cars in the 1980s when it was all about lead acid. Hence it is impressive about how the energy density is improving. Where the limits are is unclear. However, there always will remain a question as to whether storing energy in hydrocarbons is better or worse than hydrogen.

I have always thought that producing hydrogen from off grid wind power had some merit, but it is not an energy source.

[JohnB]

Up to 20% hydrogen can be inserted into the natural gas supply, to reduce the environmental impact of legacy heating systems before you need to tweak them (https://www.thechemicalengineer.com/fea ... -hydrogen/) . If they can do hydrogen powered blast furnaces (https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... -hydrogen/) I think many industrial processes can come off fossil fuels.

Battery trains can already do 40 miles, and 100 miles is in easy sight (https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/01/uk ... miles.html). Hybrid battery/electric trains are better fit than the current diesel/electric ones, especially as the non-electrified sections will be the lower speed edges of the network. You don't need to do every train for all of its journey, just most of the miles travelled. https://www.londonreconnections.com/201 ... ted-lines/ has an interesting discussion on how the Uckfield spur might be converted to batteries.

London Reconnections are discussing decarbonising trains https://www.londonreconnections.com/202 ... gust-2020/

[johnhemming]

Up to 20% hydrogen

Unless we are sending space ships to the sun to mine hydrogen this is about using hydrogen as a storage mechanism.

[richfool]

Hydrogen-powered train makes UK maiden journey

A hydrogen-powered train has travelled on Britain’s rail network for the first time.

The prototype, called the Hydroflex, made a 25-mile round trip through Warwickshire and Worcestershire, reaching speeds of up to 50 mph.

Its next phase is to move the hydrogen tanks, fuel cell and battery out of a carriage and stash them underneath the train.

The aim is for the train to start carrying paying passengers by the end of 2021.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046