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Wave & Tidal Matters

Nimrod103
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#301623

Postby Nimrod103 » April 18th, 2020, 6:53 pm

dspp wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Very interesting. I know nothing about all of this but am pleased to learn. When SSE spoke to us (a group of investors) it was some years ago and certainly the opinion is as you say out of date by now. What I was trying to suggest was that when wind turbines were introduced (and certainly those at sea) they were very expensive and needed large subsidies to make them work and maybe tidal power is at that stage as well.

I see what you are saying so maybe there is just not a big enough opportunity to use tidal power. Thanks anyway because I like to know about these things.

Dod


AIUI that's the theory behind subsidies for emerging technologies. Give them a helping hand through an R&D phase to bring them to a stage where they can bring costs down and become competitive with established technologies.

Some governments are willing to do that, others will only do it as a political bribe (as in the huge subsidies paid to homeowners who put up solar panels). Wind and solar got a helping hand from those who were prepared to help - for example wind just across the North Sea in Denmark.

Tidal energy should in principle be our best source here in the UK, and a worthwhile source in quite a few other places. What it hasn't had is supportive governments to help it through the uneconomic early phase SSE were facing at the time you recollect. The Swansea Tidal project was strongly recommended by more-or-less everyone[1] including the Hendry review commissioned by government, and even featured in Cameron's election manifesto, but was vetoed by the Daily Telegraph.

The Scottish government has been rather more supportive of projects there, and some are indeed happening - albeit on a small scale.

[1] Except (from memory) Neath MP Peter Hain, whose opposition was because he didn't want it distracting from his support for the Severn Barrage.


1. The Swansea project was more or less derided by everyone apart from the civil engineering sector that was pushing it.

2. Would you care to put any realistic engineering & economic maths behind your assertion that tidal should be the UK's best source of energy.

regards, dspp


My understanding was that a significant part of the Swansea project was getting permission to reopen a big stone quarry on the Cornish coast, in an area of outstanding natural beauty, which the promoters just happened to own. I couldn't help but feel that was the main driver for the economics.

88V8
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#301705

Postby 88V8 » April 19th, 2020, 9:50 am

I bought into Atlantis a few years ago (now SAE Simec Atlantis) when all was gung-ho.
Now sitting on a 90% loss.

I take a dim view of tidal schemes that affect significant habitats. Swansea Bay for example is of national lmportance in its wildlife and habitats.
So although it has cost me a bit of money, I am glad that such schemes are not being supported.

V8

dspp
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#301734

Postby dspp » April 19th, 2020, 11:56 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
dspp wrote:1. The Swansea project was more or less derided by everyone apart from the civil engineering sector that was pushing it.

2. Would you care to put any realistic engineering & economic maths behind your assertion that tidal should be the UK's best source of energy.

regards, dspp


I wouldn't presume to put myself forward as expert.

But I will offer a very reputable source.


You did put yourself forwards as an expert by making assertions.

Now you are relying on someone else. Some of his stuff is about right. Other stuff is somewhat naive, which is OK if you are in academia doing the handwavy stuff and not having to do it for real yourself. Please explain how to produce energy from a "tidal stream farm" at 2-3 kts waterspeed (his p84). Please be exact.

Friends & colleagues of mine have worked on this. Some are (or were) the top people in the field. So too have I. We none of us work on it any more, as we cannot see a reasonable risk economically viable pathway that is better than the alternatives (primarily wind and solar). However en passant some of us have had our mortgages paid off courtesy of the investors & taxpayers (not mine I hasten to add).

I have posted specifics of the issues in the past here on this board.

regards, dspp

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#332679

Postby dspp » August 12th, 2020, 1:41 pm

Are folks OK if I rename this as "Wave & Tidal matters " ...... ?????

=========
Wave Hub finally gets Wind
(bit late eh, it was installed in 2010)
https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/08/11 ... 2020-08-12

edit, the Wiki entry makes for interesting reading in respect of Seatricity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_Hub

- dspp

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#332985

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 13th, 2020, 6:19 pm

dspp wrote:Are folks OK if I rename this as "Wave & Tidal matters " ...... ?????

=========
Wave Hub finally gets Wind
(bit late eh, it was installed in 2010)
https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/08/11 ... 2020-08-12

edit, the Wiki entry makes for interesting reading in respect of Seatricity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_Hub

- dspp


Anyone interested in a flutter in this: there's a marine energy company producing rigs to harness both wind and wave energy in the same unit, raising funds on the seedrs platform right now.

Of course, DYOR. I haven't invested in it, but then I'm not sure if I'm investing in any crowdfunding flutters this year.

dspp
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#333103

Postby dspp » August 14th, 2020, 9:40 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
dspp wrote:Are folks OK if I rename this as "Wave & Tidal matters " ...... ?????

=========
Wave Hub finally gets Wind
(bit late eh, it was installed in 2010)
https://www.offshorewind.biz/2020/08/11 ... 2020-08-12

edit, the Wiki entry makes for interesting reading in respect of Seatricity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_Hub

- dspp


Anyone interested in a flutter in this: there's a marine energy company producing rigs to harness both wind and wave energy in the same unit, raising funds on the seedrs platform right now.

Of course, DYOR. I haven't invested in it, but then I'm not sure if I'm investing in any crowdfunding flutters this year.


Is that the Dutch-origin one that used some Gaia two-bladers in their proof of concept ?

regards, dspp

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#333174

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 14th, 2020, 12:37 pm

dspp wrote:
Anyone interested in a flutter in this: there's a marine energy company producing rigs to harness both wind and wave energy in the same unit, raising funds on the seedrs platform right now.

Of course, DYOR. I haven't invested in it, but then I'm not sure if I'm investing in any crowdfunding flutters this year.


Is that the Dutch-origin one that used some Gaia two-bladers in their proof of concept ?

regards, dspp


I was unspecific because I didn't recollect the name.

I just looked it up: it's https://www.marinepowersystems.co.uk/ .

dspp
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#333179

Postby dspp » August 14th, 2020, 12:54 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
dspp wrote:
Anyone interested in a flutter in this: there's a marine energy company producing rigs to harness both wind and wave energy in the same unit, raising funds on the seedrs platform right now.

Of course, DYOR. I haven't invested in it, but then I'm not sure if I'm investing in any crowdfunding flutters this year.


Is that the Dutch-origin one that used some Gaia two-bladers in their proof of concept ?

regards, dspp


I was unspecific because I didn't recollect the name.

I just looked it up: it's https://www.marinepowersystems.co.uk/ .


Thanks. That is not the one I was thinking of. I recollect seeing that one many years ago, in fact one of the utilities wanted me to do something similar.

regards, dspp

88V8
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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#408712

Postby 88V8 » May 2nd, 2021, 9:52 am

Said to be the world's most powerful tidal turbine, and rather resembling a submersible aeroplane, all 680 tons of the 2MW Orbital turbine has been launched from Dundee for a tow to the Orkneys where it will hopefully be connected to the grid.

Today's biggest tidal energy projects, Korea's Sihwa Lake Tidal Power Plant and the Rance Tidal Power Station in France, have been built using undersea barrages. These barrage systems close sluice gates at low tide, then open them at high tide to take advantage of the height differential to run turbines. They work well, but the installation cost is high and the stifling of natural water flow can have negative environmental consequences.
Orbital's approach is aimed at keeping costs as low as possible. It uses floating turbines, installed in channels that accelerate tidal flows. These turbine platforms are moored to the ocean floor, so the undersea work to install them is quick, cheap and minimal.


Read all about it here https://orbitalmarine.com/orbital-marin ... unches-o2/

Orbital Marine Power snazzy website - formerly Scotrenewables - here https://orbitalmarine.com/orbital-marin ... unches-o2/

Tidal should provide a more reliable supply than wind and sun, but scour, storms and erosion are inimical to undersea technology.
Time will tell.

V8

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#408717

Postby Itsallaguess » May 2nd, 2021, 10:43 am

88V8 wrote:
Said to be the world's most powerful tidal turbine, and rather resembling a submersible aeroplane, all 680 tons of the 2MW Orbital turbine has been launched from Dundee for a tow to the Orkneys where it will hopefully be connected to the grid.

Today's biggest tidal energy projects, Korea's Sihwa Lake Tidal Power Plant and the Rance Tidal Power Station in France, have been built using undersea barrages. These barrage systems close sluice gates at low tide, then open them at high tide to take advantage of the height differential to run turbines. They work well, but the installation cost is high and the stifling of natural water flow can have negative environmental consequences.
Orbital's approach is aimed at keeping costs as low as possible. It uses floating turbines, installed in channels that accelerate tidal flows. These turbine platforms are moored to the ocean floor, so the undersea work to install them is quick, cheap and minimal.


Read all about it here https://orbitalmarine.com/orbital-marin ... unches-o2/

Orbital Marine Power snazzy website - formerly Scotrenewables - here https://orbitalmarine.com/orbital-marin ... unches-o2/


Very interesting - thanks.

The two links above don't really show much in terms of how the Orbital O2 actually operates, but hopefully the YouTube link below helps with that for anyone interested in this type of tidal turbine technology -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5MPbhAmcNQ

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#408732

Postby Dod101 » May 2nd, 2021, 11:23 am

Is this a prototype, experimental or actually going in to real production? Be interesting to know because on the whole it seems to me to be a much better idea than these awful windfarms. Obviously, in the Pentland Firth there are very fast moving tides, in both directions, and in fact they change every six hours or so I suppose.

Dod

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#408777

Postby Mike4 » May 2nd, 2021, 3:26 pm

Dod101 wrote:Is this a prototype, experimental or actually going in to real production? Be interesting to know because on the whole it seems to me to be a much better idea than these awful windfarms. Obviously, in the Pentland Firth there are very fast moving tides, in both directions, and in fact they change every six hours or so I suppose.

Dod


It looks pretty real to me in this video on the company website.

https://youtu.be/IdGeNa3KLds

It looks a lot cheaper than a conventional off-shore windmill but given the two are a roughly equal hazard to shipping, I've not noticed any headline figures comparing the power output of one of these with the power from a windmill. A total guess is they might be similar. If so I think these combined with windmills will turn out to be a big step forward given their relative simplicity.

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#408840

Postby Charlottesquare » May 2nd, 2021, 9:51 pm

There is also the Sustainable Marine (Edinburgh, Germany, Canada) venture, Plat -1 640, here is a link to their 420kw platform to be deployed in Nova Scotia at two sites, Grand Passage and Pempa'q, the latter to be scaled up to 9MW

https://www.sustainablemarine.com/pempa-q

https://www.sustainablemarine.com/grand-passage

They are local to me having their office in Edinburgh down in the heart of Leith on one of our office barges.

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#425945

Postby 88V8 » July 8th, 2021, 6:14 pm

Sustainable Marine... progress report on its smaller - 4m - rotors which have been lab tested in a 20 year simulation.
https://www.sustainablemarine.com/press ... %2C-galway

Sounds OK, but as the song says, there ain't nothing like the real thing.

V8

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#430905

Postby scotia » July 28th, 2021, 10:33 am

The new Tidal turbine in Orkney is now up and running

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-57991351

Its a 2MW turbine, and slightly south, nearer the Caithness coast there are 4 x 1.5MW Tidal turbines in the Maygen scheme (operating for over 3 years).

BUT - off the East Caithness coast there are 84 x 7MW Wind turbines in the Beatrice scheme which have been operating for the past 2 years.

I don't think it requires much thought to conclude that the game has been well and truly won by Wind turbines. I should add that I don't particularly like the view of large windfarms close to the coast - but they are probably more acceptable than onshore wind farms (which Caithness also is peppered with). I wonder how the Beatrice scheme will affect wildlife - the nearby coast is a large nesting site for seabirds. Dolphins, Orcas and Seals are also frequently seen.

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#430928

Postby Midsmartin » July 28th, 2021, 11:19 am

I don't know if these will be scaled up beyond 2MW. I imagine so, just as wind turbines haves grown steadily larger. You'd need a few hundred 2MW turbines to replace the output of a gas power station. Eg the newish Carrington power station is nearly 900MW

I always wish more emphasis would be put on us simply using less power as the most obvious way of cutting emissions from the worst power sources. Energy should be an expensive resource, with exceptions for basic heating for the less well off.

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#431167

Postby 88V8 » July 29th, 2021, 10:47 am

scotia wrote:The new Tidal turbine in Orkney is now up and running

Radio 4 last night, Orbital CEO talking... and a chap from Herriot Watt pointing out that potentially one could develop 5GW of tidal power in the Pentland Firth alone, which is more than the total power demand of Scotland.

"...tidal power is predictable..."
Which is true.
But as Scotia says, perhaps a predictable niche.

Starts at 30:24.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000y6pd

V8

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#431226

Postby daveh » July 29th, 2021, 1:22 pm

88V8 wrote:
scotia wrote:The new Tidal turbine in Orkney is now up and running

Radio 4 last night, Orbital CEO talking... and a chap from Herriot Watt pointing out that potentially one could develop 5GW of tidal power in the Pentland Firth alone, which is more than the total power demand of Scotland.

"...tidal power is predictable..."
Which is true.
But as Scotia says, perhaps a predictable niche.

Starts at 30:24.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000y6pd

V8


Its predictable, but also intermittent on two cycles, your power drops to zero on an ~6hr cycle plus you also see your power drop by ~50% on a monthly cycle. There are two spring tides (max power) twice every lunar month and two neaps (minimum power). The daily tidal rise and fall can be compensated for by having sites situated at the correct spacing such that slack water is out of sync.

It makes tidal power a bit more complicated to set up and why the Cardiff bay project was never going to suitable as base load.

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#539841

Postby 88V8 » October 21st, 2022, 12:38 pm

'Ocean Energy, an Irish-based co-operative with fourteen partners across industry and academia in the UK, Ireland, France, Germany and Spain, has already tested its oscillating water column generators at significant scale in Hawaii and it's just signed on to a four-year project to test, validate and commercialise its biggest unit yet off Orkney, in Scotland.'

Sizeable, capable of 1.25MW.
No investment opportunities yet, but one to watch.

https://newatlas.com/energy/oceanenergy-oe35-wave-power/

V8

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Re: Wave & Tidal Matters

#539874

Postby scotia » October 21st, 2022, 2:15 pm

88V8 wrote:'Ocean Energy, an Irish-based co-operative with fourteen partners across industry and academia in the UK, Ireland, France, Germany and Spain, has already tested its oscillating water column generators at significant scale in Hawaii and it's just signed on to a four-year project to test, validate and commercialise its biggest unit yet off Orkney, in Scotland.'

Sizeable, capable of 1.25MW.
No investment opportunities yet, but one to watch.

https://newatlas.com/energy/oceanenergy-oe35-wave-power/

V8

Not really sizeable. And does it scale up at a competitive cost? Nearby in the Pentland Firth there is the MayGen Tidal Flow Generation Scheme which was up and running in 2018, generating 6MW. There are current plans to increase this to 80MW, but little progress. Initially it was hoped to install up to 398MW.
Meantime there has been a nearby operating installation of 588MW Offshore Wind turbines off the Caithness Coast. Onshore construction commenced in 2016, and the final operational turbine was installed offshore three years later. All within budget. An even larger Windfarm (Seagreen) currently is partially operating further south off the Angus coast.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that Windfarm technology seems all-conquering. I have doubts about any competitive advantages of other types of offshore generators.


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