Pension blocked - dispute iDealing/EPML/Suffolk Life

[feste]

Hi all,
I'd appreciate hearing feedback / advice from anyone else affected by the above.
I am a longstanding customer of iDealing and have a SIPP with them for abt 12 years, where trustee/administrator was their panel member European Pensions Management Ltd (EPML).
EPML was acquired from the liquidators last year by Suffolk Life (SL) , after it had gone into voluntary liquidation - apparently after the directors concluded it didn't have the resources to satisfy a remediation claim for missing client funds.
Like a number of you, I received an info pack from SL and duly competed paperwork appointing them as successor trustee/administrator.
I am currently in drawdown and in March submitted (in time for the new tax year) a duly completed UFPLS application.
It turns out that - for reasons that are not clear to me and that iDealing refuse to disclose - iDealing refuses to recognise SL or engage with them in any way, stating that their client is EPML and they will only deal with them. When I try to contact EPML , I am - naturally enough - directed to SL's website. SL are unable to administer my account with them because iDealing won't recognise them. So I am being sent from pillar to post (and back) and am unable to access the pension income that I need.

Is anyone else facing a similar situation ? If not, does anyone have experience of how to resolve /who to approach in such a situation ?
TIA

[supremetwo]

Hi all,
When I try to contact EPML , I am - naturally enough - directed to SL's website. SL are unable to administer my account with them because iDealing won't recognise them. So I am being sent from pillar to post (and back) and am unable to access the pension income that I need.

Is anyone else facing a similar situation ? If not, does anyone have experience of how to resolve /who to approach in such a situation ?
TIA

Contact the Complaints Officer:-

https://register.fca.org.uk/ShPo_FirmDe ... 00MfIKtAAN

[feste]

Hi supremetwo,

Thanks for the reply.
Suffolk Life has apparently already lodged a corporate complaint abt iDealing's (alleged) behaviour with the FCA, unfortunately that has little/no teeth.
I am considering my own complaint - at the consumer level - in view of the financial inconvenience/distress this situation is causing, however , the FCA procedure allows for a 2 month interval post complaint for the parties to resolve matters amicably BEFORE they will start intervening themselves.
I've already been waiting a couple of months (since I have a long-standing relationship with iDealing and couldn't believe 2 corporates could be so customer-unfriendly, risking serious adverse publicity), but it seems I was wrong.
Hence my looking - belatedly - for a quick fix.

Cheers

[XFool]

Money Box, etc?

[feste]

Hi Xfool,

Thanks for the link - I wasn't aware of this programme.
I'm loth to go 'general public' on this because it really is a nuclear option ! Mind you, in my more frustrated moments, I have wondered about Private Eye - this is the sort of cockup that they love to expose, 'In the City' articles which I've hitherto tended to look at with bemusement, deeming them improbably far-fetched....

We live and learn !

I'll let the board know what happens, in any event.

Many thanks
ATB

[iank]

I too am in this situation, unable to find out why iDealing refuse to deal with Suffolk Lilfe. I had a telephone converstion with iDealing that really did not reveal very much.

The letters from SL clearly point the finger at iDealing, and iDealing have been much less forthcoming with their information. In the past, I have always found iDealing to be quite a reasonable and helpful company, but am beginning to wonder if there is something more troubling behind this dispute.

IDealing clearly want you to set up with one of their SIPP providers, but the set up and running costs all seem much more than those we paid with EPML and those offered at SL. According to the recent SL letter, we cannot move out of SL at the moment until the dispute with iDealing is settled, so we are well and truly stuck.
SL want us to complain as individuals to the FCA, as apparently they cannot do so themselves. I too am a bit reluctant to do this at the moment, as we have other accounts with iDealing.

I wonder if a Facebook group and publicity might help to break this logjam.

[feste]

Hi iank,

I like your suggestion of a Facebook group to identify the affected. I'm mainly a 'lurker' on FB , how would that work ? The SIPP book that SL bought from EPML's liquidator had 5,000 accounts worth £630 million, obviously not all with iDealing - but enough to be material to iDealing (see below), which may explain their unhelpfulness.

Sounds like we're in a similar position : my history with iDealing goes back more than a decade and I worked as a 'guinea pig' when they were trialling their early loans agst portfolios structures. So I thought I had a good relationship, but that appears to count for nothing. I too have a number of other and family accounts with them.
I've been in dialogue with them on this issue since February, was told then of an unspecified dispute with SL and 'encouraged' to look at a switch to another trustee/administrator.
The alternatives suggested were unsuitable/unattractive to me, apart from the costs aspect ...and only given (after a lot of chasing on my part) because they 'had to get some paperwork in order'. I think iDealing was probably over-reliant on EPML (until recently, over half the providers supposedly on their panel of approved trustees weren't actually 'operative' for one reason or another. The list has just been updated/shortened) and is concerned that SL may be poaching business in some way.
iDealing's foot-dragging and outright obfuscation (as I see it) is a concern. From my discussions with SL , with the Special Administrator Smith and Williamson and with a firm of IFA's , there appears to be no acceptable justification for their stance, certainly no reasonable explanation.
iDealing has been aware for some time (in writing) that I wish to transfer out. This is not an option they provide for in their latest (15 June) communication to ex EPML SIPPholders, which in any case would need to be approved by SL, whom they refuse to recognise. Catch-22. I've asked iDealing to set out in writing a transfer out mechanism, they've ignored my request.
SL can't complain to the FCA because they're a corporate, we can't complain to the FCA , under consumer protection, because we're not technically consumers, merely agents of the trustee....I've written to the FT on this aspect.

I've submitted a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman and asked my MP (a former Secretary to the Treasury) to look at this from a number of disquieting 'public policy' aspects (see the Special Liquidator's report on EPML for details). As mentioned earlier, I'm contemplating contacting 'In the City' (Private Eye) and wonder about a change.org petition ? The problem being that publicity might be counter-productive in all sorts of unfortunate ways.

I'm not sure if lemonfool has a private messaging facility, if it does, I'm happy to share some stuff with you. If it doesn't email me at philmac4 at hotm... etc. com

[maffs0]

I'm in the same boat.

My preference now is to transfer out to Youinvest and my request has been with SL since the beginning of December. They say they can't do this as iDealing are refusing to release details to them. It does seem very strange. One of my reasons for moving to YouInvest is that the SIPP administrator and stockbroker seem to be under the same overall company.

Like you, I have other accounts with iDealing and have always found them to be excellent, really helpful. The one thing I love about them is that if I can't trade online due to size or whatever, they just charge me the same when I pick up the phone.

I got a SL letter the other day that confused me even more and I'm in Spain on holiday now so I'll try to work it out when I get home.

M.

[rahindex]

Hi Hi

I am in a similar position. I was with EPML, but the assets were at Selftrade. As soon as I heard that Suffolk Life were trying to buy EPML out, I transferred to Selfrade's own SIPP. This was back in November as with the other people on this thread.
Since all that was need was to change the name of the account, as the assets were already in Selftrade, I expected everything to be done very quickly......but here we are 8 months later. All that has happened is that all the cash (small in my case) has been lifted from the account.....but everything else is still in limbo.

I complained to the Pension Ombudsman about Suffolk Life, but they respond that they cannot investigate until they get a final letter from Suffolk Life. I have not had anything from them for months. Therefore I complained about Selftrade, and they sent out the final letter very quickly (blaming Suffolk Life), which I have now referred on to the Pension Ombudsman so at least they can investigate. I think a simple search of the news reinforces our worries.

[Alaric]

It might not be relevant in the least, but the ownership of Suffolk Life has changed in the last 18 months.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... sting.html

[harrystophanous]

I'm in the same situation as feste - EPML gone to Suffolk Life while in drawdown. I would like to stay with Suffolk (the 3 alternative suggestions iDealing gave me were somewhat uninspiring) so seem to have no choice but to change investment manager.

I opened a SIPP account with Selftrade (I already have a dealing account with them) but iDealing don't seem to want to talk to them any more than they do Suffolk Life. My SIPP account has disappeared from iDealing, so I'm in complete limbo. Can't manage the investments and can't withdraw money.

Apparently, according to SL, iDealing are now transferring cash, but will not (yet) do in specie transfers. I have received a quote from iDealing for the charges for outward transfers and agreed to pay them (I'm really not happy about it, but I don't have a great number of stocks in the portfolio and need to settle the matter) but that doesn't seem to have unblocked the transfers.

They guy I dealt with at iDealing is not taking calls, and doesn't even acknowledge receipt of emails let alone reply to them. I begin to be concerned about the other accounts I have with them, for obvious reasons.

I got here by googling 'iDealing dispute resolution procedure' - it was the most relevant link Escalation looks like the only way forward. Has anybody yet approached the Pension or Financial Services Ombudsmen?

[rahindex]

Hi Hi

I went to the Pension Ombudsman about 2 weeks ago and my problems are pretty much solved now. The transfers are all in place and tradeable. The small amount of cash is still in limbo, but I have written confirmation that it is on its way. Certainly worth getting the PO involved.

It is surprising that control of your pension funds can be obtained just by buying an administrator out from the Receiver. I am not sure how EPML went bust: surely the income was a known quantity (number of plans x annual fees). You just had to make the overheads lower than that. I imagine that an unscrupulous/dishonest pension firm could make a lot of money very quickly.

[harrystophanous]

Hi

OK, thanks for that - congratulations on getting it sorted! I certainly will contact the PO. It sounds as though you didn't have iDealing to cope with though, who have always been the blockers in my attempts to resolve the issues.

I'd also like to know what happened at EPML, although I find it easy to imagine ways a small SIPP provider could go under - a change in the rules leading to a major IT bill would be one obvious way - but it's clear that the whole system of oversight is weak. I also got screwed in the Equitable Life fiasco, compounded by the PO ruling against me in the face of all logic and law, so I know whereof I speak

[feste]

Hi all,

Here's my update :
(1) iDealing has sent a cheque for roughly the cash element of my SIPP to the liquidator (ie they still won't recognise Suffolk Life) and say they've rematerialised the contents of my portfolio and sent certificates (naming EPML as owner) to the liquidator (ditto).
(2) iDealing took a week to confirm (after I'd asked) that they'd closed my account ie no pre-notification. They've not replied to my request for closing statement (so I can find out what they've charged, my cash account looks to be several hundred £s 'light' , from memory) or for a statement of share portfolio at close....and my SIPP has since 'disappeared' so I am reliant on a version backed up a couple of weeks pre-close to track its progress through to Suffolk Life.
(3) The cheque favour EPML cleared 29/6 and funds were transferred to SL on the 5th July, which I can see from my SL account. The share portfolio hasn't appeared. SL say they can't process my pending UFPLS drawdown request until the file has been reviewed, which 'could take a few weeks'. The transfer out process involves a more detailed reconciliation than the 'quick and dirty' due diligence done at the time of acquiring the EPML book last year (5,000 customers, £ 630 M in client assets).
(4) I understand their caution : EPML went into self-liquidation in June 2016, when its then Directors determined it lacked the resources to honour a client remediation claim : this - according to the liquidator's report - related to the withdrawal from an EPML BoS account by unnamed parties of ca. £ 277K in Feb 2013 of misappropriated client funds (interest / HMRC rebates etc) dating back to pre 2007, the calling by the FCA for a forensic analysis in June 2014; the investigator's report in November 2015; and EPML accepting in March 2016 to cease writing new business in view of inadequacy of controls. With backdated interest, the bill due to clients exceeded £ 500K.
(5) As an aside, the then directors (and other directors going back 3 years under the liquidator's look-back rights) were investigated and , apparently , cleared. I am somewhat surprised at this , on a Morton's fork basis : either they didn't know what was going on, in which case incompetence/dereliction of duty (and where were the auditors ? this was a 'material' amount in the context of a business that reported a profit of £ 32K to FYE2014) or they did...and what about professional indemnity insurance, to cover precisely these situations ? In any event, the principal director throughout these events and sole director at time of closure has presumably been absolved of any blame by the FCA , since he's set up in the pension administration and trustee business again (Jan 2017).
(6)I'm no clearer to understanding why iDealing has refused to deal with SL, only (reluctantly and - from my perspective- unhelpfully) with the Liquidator. Like harrystophanous, I found 'uninspiring' the 16 alternative trustee /administrators on their panel that iDealing persisted in urging me to use - when I looked into them, nearly half were inoperative for one reason or another, though it appears the list has since been tidied up. It seems that iDealing had a close commercial relationship with EPML , my guess is that it may have been over-exposed / over-dependent on it.
(7) I've complained to the Financial Ombudsman (and been fobbed off/put on hold) and to my MP over the various disquieting aspects of this case .....and particularly the frustrating, continuing lack of effective recourse open to me. I've been told this has been passed to Treasury, but am not hopeful that this will resolve matters (or prompt measures to prevent a recurrence).

Meanwhile, I'm forced to continue as I've been doing for more than 3 months now : liquidating other assets/drawing down on savings to cover living costs. It's inconvenient, but I can afford it ...pro tem. There must be plenty who can't - and for whom this instance of a failure in the system must be acutely distressing.

ATB

[harrystophanous]

feste

thanks for the update - that's as reassuring as one can get in the circumstances. You've done a great detective job in clarifying what's happening (or not as the case may be) so thanks for that too.

My own situation is pretty much unchanged, at least as far as I can see. My SIPP is still not visible, and none of the investments have been transferred. From my SL account it seems that the cash balance has moved, which is at least some progress, but God knows what's happening with the rest of it. iDealing still refuse to communicate with me by any means, even to acknowledge receipt of documents.

I've also closed my Standard account with them, but left my ISA for the moment as it's well under the FSCS limit, so not the same concern as the SIPP. I can't help feeling that will also transfer as and when the SIPP is sorted. If something did happen to iDealing, a possibility that I no longer rule out, even if I was financially compensated it would be a lot of hassle I can well live without.

I'm also in drawdown, but as I only take payments twice a year and one was in May (pre-paid by SL, a generous action on a decent chunk of money, and one of the reasons I decided to stay with them) the next isn't due until October, so I'm not so pressed in that respect. My bigger concern is with my portfolio - there's already been one Open Offer missed - who knows what else can happen while they mess about?

I only looked in any depth at the three trustees iDealing suggested - one was a two man, no dog outfit; another looked seriously underpowered; and the third seemed more or less kosher, and might have been acceptable if there was less at stake.

I've complained to the Pensions Ombudsman, who kicked it smartly into the long grass - start the iDealing dispute resolution procedure (which although they told him it existed I don't believe it does - they certainly haven't sent me the copy I requested), and wait 8 weeks. I expected no better. I also complained to the FCA - I see that as well all this palaver, iDealing's Pillar 3 declaration, which the FCA Handbook says should be updated at least annually, is dated December 2015. I really think they're skating on thin ice. A great pity, because before this blew up, I've always had good service and been very happy with them. So it goes...

harry

[rahindex]

Hi Harry/feste

to get the PO moving, I had to complain about both the old pension administrator and the new one (in this case Selftrade SIPP). As they were going to be getting the accounts, they sent me the final notice which allows the PO to move very quickly.....even though I was not really complaining about them. A few 100s of £s has gone missing, but I was hugely relieved to have the assets on screen and able to do control them. Although I am old enough to start taking the pensions, I have not done so yet as I intend working for another 3 years.

fests's stuff about what went on at EPML is hugely worrying.....reminds me of Cyprus. Someone we know had sold a house and the money was sitting in Popular Bank....everything over Eur 100k was lost. If money was removed by persons unknown that strikes me as theft and the police should be investigating. It should also activate the professional insurance policies. It would have been horrible if you cash lump sum had been "resting" in that account at the time of the theft.

I am surprised there has not been more publicity about this.

[feste]

Hi all,

Thanks for the feedback. iDealing does seem to be a bit cavalier in its approach to documentation.

It filed accounts late in 2011 http://citywire.co.uk/money/diary-of-a- ... ng/a548676 and again this year, being gazetted as 'about to be struck off' https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0372 ... /documents.

Like Harry, I was underwhelmed by the 2 names proposed as replacement pension trustees/administrators ....only proposed after repeated chasers on my side following delays whilst iDealing 'tidied up documentation'. One had a sole director in his 70's and the other seemed suited (and priced) for offshore HNWI's , with offices in all manner of tax havens. I looked at the entire panel, several links didn't work , one co was dissolved in 2008, one co domain was for sale, several had been sold on, one I couldn't even locate on google. Its approved panel members even included (to June 2017) EPML.....

AIUI, from conversations with various staff, it would seem that the CEO, Lee Foster Bowman, doubles as iDealing's compliance officer, which strikes me as a 'courageous' (copyright Yes, Minister) choice. Whether he still discharges this function is moot, according to a 1st April 2017 filing (see above) he's now resident in Spain. Ho hum.

I'm following up with my MP (usefully, perhaps, a former Secretary to the Treasury), focussing on the multiple industry failings (esp. FCA (lack of effective) oversight ) that I believe this saga (geddit ?) has exposed . My MP has already forwarded my complaint to Treasury and suggested that we might also usefully involve the Pensions and Works Minister.

I'll update as and when there are any material developments.

ATB

[harrystophanous]

rahindex

I'm not sure that publicity would be an unmitigated good at this time. As far as I'm concerned the EPML to Suffolk Life transition was handled very well, so no complaints there, it's only the interface to iDealing that seems to have gone wrong.

What's really needed is for the FCA to step in and take a look at iDealing. If they're just a bit overloaded and being dilatory that's one thing - give them a good kicking and a threat of a fine and make sure they sort the problems out. On the other hand, if they're genuinely struggling, the FCA needs to find a white knight to take them over and keep the show on the road. It doesn't benefit anybody to have a massive twitter storm and push a company that could be saved, over the edge.

'Light touch regulation' I think they call it...

[feste]

Hi all,

An update, somewhat quicker than I expected.

(1) The liquidator told me yesterday that the EPML/iDealing saga has now been escalated to the highest level within the FCA, on the basis of 'client detriment' caused by iDealing's starting to process in-specie 'transfers out' by the cumbersome rematerialisation route. I'm told that my certificates (thankfully all there !) are en-route to Suffolk Life.

(2) Suffolk Life have today emailed me to say that they have processed payments covering both the tax-free and the taxable elements of my UFPLS.

(3) On reconciling a recreated final account balance with the cheque paid to EPML by iDealing (who have continued to ignore my request for a closing statement), I appear to be 'light' by about £ 230, give or take.....which would approximate to a closing fee of £ 60 and a 'rematerialisation' charge of £ 17-50 per holding. This is subject to (eventual) confirmation. I'm obviously less than 'gruntled' by this ;-<

(4) Although my own situation appears (touch wood) close to resolution, I've also been in touch again with my MP to re-emphasize the 'public interest' aspect of the FCA's dilatory/'light touch' approach in its regulation of both EPML and iDealing and to provide additional material for the file that (she tells me) has already gone to Treasury. Some of this material is based on (anonymised) contributions from this board, for which my thanks.

(5) With surely fortuitous timing, my MP, Nicky Morgan was elected yesterday to Chair the Treasury Select Committee which, inter alia, holds the FCA to account.

"Result !" seems an appropriate reaction.....;->

ATB

[iank]

I had a conversation yesterday with iDealing, and it seems there is no prospect of the 2 companies working together. I failed to get any explanation, other than they think SL are a rapacious company that has grown quickly by acquisitions. The animosity almost seems personal.

I do not know whether the FCA can force iDealing to accept working with SL, but may be able to ensure pension holders will not financially suffer from this impasse. IDealing told me that there is some sort of deadline this summer and we have to make a decision to abandon one of the companies. We are going away for 3 months and will not be able to deal with this and unfortunately have to make a decision now. I would have preferred to wait to see if the FCA could have been able to resolve the situation.

Like others on this forum, we have other accounts with iDealing and transferring out of iDealing completely would be very costly. As mentioned above, there is the £60 fee plus £17.50 per line of stock. As I understand it, if they rematerialise the holdings, then the transfer is in cash, so there would be the dealing costs of repurchasing stock in the new sipp dealing platform. SL have said that they will not charge for a transfer out of SL if I wish to stay with iDealing.

EPML seemed a reputable company, but it seems that you cannot take anything for granted. iDealing told me about 3 of their sipp providers, probably the same as those mentioned in a previous post. The small one in Weymouth came well recommended, and they have been in business since 1993, so hopefully any 'funny business' would be apparent by now. Our SIPPs are not too large, and we intend to empty them in the next few years while we are basic tax rate payers.

The behaviour of iDealing has been pretty poor and inexplicable, but I think I am going to stick with them and transfer out of SL. What continues to worry me is that there is something rotten with iDealing, but we will just have to keep our fingers crossed.

All the best