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Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

including wills and probate
stewamax
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Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420107

Postby stewamax » June 17th, 2021, 10:21 am

You may see today that Superintendent Williams' appeal against dismissal by the Met has been successful.

In 2019, the judge in sentencing her said that she was not responsible for the video being sent to her, but that his interpretation of the jury’s verdict was that she was aware that such a video had been sent to her before her sister who sent it later rang from a police station, but accepted that she never played it.

However unless she could prove that she had no reason to believe the video was indecent or that she had not kept it on her phone for an unreasonable length of time, she had to be convicted of ‘possession’.

For those who get lots of email, this verdict raises all sort of questions about ‘possession’.
I get a lot of email, some overt spam and quite a lot of a less obvious character. My email client has Rules set to sweep all the former and much of the latter into either the ‘Delete’, or ‘Junk’ or a ‘Look later’ folder.
In the fullness of time the Junk is swept to Delete and the Delete folder sometime later again cleared.
The question is that since the Rules are set to identify (inter alia) porn material, could I not be guilty of (inadvertent) possession?

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420131

Postby XFool » June 17th, 2021, 11:24 am

Reminded me of an old story on the Internet from, I think the 1990s. Cannot vouch for the details, or the outcome, or the truth.

Allegedly, a man found a gun. He took it to a police station - presumably to hand it in and say: "I found this gun..."

He was charged with 'possession of a fire-arm'. Undeniably 'guilty', because he was in possession of a fire-arm...

For one reason or another, I would myself nowadays be reluctant to involve myself in these issues. I saw 'something' broken in the street a few years ago: A cash box? A strong box? I left it alone, let someone else 'find' it!

I found someone's wallet in the park - obviously no cash in it anymore - hand it in to the police? No. Apart from anything else, today I would have to likely go miles out of my way. Used information in wallet to see it belonged to customer of a particular bank. Went to local branch on foot and handed it in to them: "This looks like one of your customer's."

Several years ago, on foot, going through a small tunnel underneath a railway line, I managed to stop two young teenage boys graffitiing. I grabbed a briefcase off the ground and held on to it - despite attempts to forcefully grab it back - until I actually got them to throw their spray can over high railings into inaccessible scrub-land. Gave them the briefcase. The tunnel remained 'clean' for quite a surprisingly long time after.

Would I do that now? You know the answer to that!

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420151

Postby gryffron » June 17th, 2021, 12:21 pm

On a PC, they can see if the file has been "accessed". So you should know it is dodgy. Not sure if that's true on a phone.

I thought there was a specific exemption for carrying a gun TO a police station to hand it in. Common sense says there should be. "I spotted this gun in a playground, but I didn't want to pick it up so I left it there". Yes, I know the law isn't always common sense.

Wallets etc. Lots of councils, airports, railways, and private companies, charge for handling lost property. Though obviously they charge the claimant, not the finder. The police are still free.

Gryff

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420162

Postby redsturgeon » June 17th, 2021, 12:55 pm

gryffron wrote:On a PC, they can see if the file has been "accessed". So you should know it is dodgy. Not sure if that's true on a phone.

I thought there was a specific exemption for carrying a gun TO a police station to hand it in. Common sense says there should be. "I spotted this gun in a playground, but I didn't want to pick it up so I left it there". Yes, I know the law isn't always common sense.

Wallets etc. Lots of councils, airports, railways, and private companies, charge for handling lost property. Though obviously they charge the claimant, not the finder. The police are still free.

Gryff


I think if I saw a discarded gun I'd probably call 999 to report it and depending on the response I received would offer to wait by it until they came to pick it up...I certainly would not touch it.

John

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420168

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 17th, 2021, 1:11 pm

She does seem[1] to have been victim of rather bizarre and draconian rules. I would have no idea if any of the unopened attachments to my junkmail contain illegal material, and her case was not so very far removed from that. And then there's (famous, renaissance) art that's illegal if you read the rules as written. Some have even seriously called for cartoon material - Japanese manga and anime - to be included on the grounds that they often depict the very young and sexualised.

Reminds me of the nonsense over carrying a knife. Mandatory prison sentence if you get caught with your kitchen knives while moving house? And who would want to go backpacking without a Swiss Army Knife?

[1] Not that we can ever be quite sure where the spin lies in reporting a story like this.

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420170

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 17th, 2021, 1:12 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I think if I saw a discarded gun I'd probably call 999 to report it and depending on the response I received would offer to wait by it until they came to pick it up...I certainly would not touch it.

John

Would one necessarily be able to tell it from a realistic child's toy gun without at least picking it up and examining it? Embarrassing potential headline there!

stewamax
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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420180

Postby stewamax » June 17th, 2021, 1:43 pm

gryffron wrote:On a PC, they can see if the file has been "accessed". So you should know it is dodgy. Not sure if that's true on a phone.

One problem is that if you run an automated process ('Rules') to re-file incoming emails, especially those with questionable content, the files* need to be opened for the checking even if the checking process is automatic. Using Rules to reduce spam and other unwanted email is an extremely common practice for anyone who receives significant amounts of email each day.
And it is common for the Deleted folder to be emptied manually rather than its contents purged when you quit the email client.

My point is more general though, and goes to the nub of who is responsible for content. If someone posts a video or photo showing illegal content on my 'open for posts' FB, Twitter or Insta pages, am I 'in possession' until I delete it, and could it then be too late?

[Mr Briefly (prosecuting barrister)]: Is it true that apart from the respective service suppliers, you alone have the 'editor' privilege to delete posts?
[me]: That is correct Mr Briefly
[M'Lud]: Six months in the slammer for you m'lad

Mr Plod could be crunching up my gravelled drive as I write.


* the 'files' may well not be individual files any way, but contained in a single large file managed by the email client

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420188

Postby redsturgeon » June 17th, 2021, 2:03 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:I think if I saw a discarded gun I'd probably call 999 to report it and depending on the response I received would offer to wait by it until they came to pick it up...I certainly would not touch it.

John

Would one necessarily be able to tell it from a realistic child's toy gun without at least picking it up and examining it? Embarrassing potential headline there!


I think it has been a while since realistic looking toy guns have been sold. I'd rather take the chance of looking stupid than risking messing up a scene of crime for forensics or putting myself in the frame for having had the gun "in my possession".

John

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420200

Postby 9873210 » June 17th, 2021, 2:59 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I think it has been a while since realistic looking toy guns have been sold. I'd rather take the chance of looking stupid than risking messing up a scene of crime for forensics or putting myself in the frame for having had the gun "in my possession".

John

What about real guns that look like toys?*

There are also working guns disguised as innocuous objects.


* Pink Glocks come to mind.

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420220

Postby AF62 » June 17th, 2021, 5:20 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:I think if I saw a discarded gun I'd probably call 999 to report it and depending on the response I received would offer to wait by it until they came to pick it up...I certainly would not touch it.

John

Would one necessarily be able to tell it from a realistic child's toy gun without at least picking it up and examining it? Embarrassing potential headline there!


I think it has been a while since realistic looking toy guns have been sold.


Perhaps for children's toy guns, but realistic adult 'toy' guns are still sold (although I have no idea why anyone would want to own one) - https://www.defconairsoft.co.uk/product ... s/pistols/

And the one time I served on a jury it involved such a gun and even with the gun in front of me (in its evidence box) and examining it for several minutes I couldn't tell it wasn't real, so God knows how terrified the bookmaker's cashier must have been when it was waived in her face by someone wearing a balaclava.

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420274

Postby didds » June 17th, 2021, 8:27 pm

I hadnt heard about the case and so googled it.

I am a member of various whatsapp groups. Some of them have many people in them some of whom send lots of photos and videos and stuff. I often miss the posts in whatspapp because by the time i come to look at whatsapp those pictures etc are many posts "behind" and i just dont know they are there.

However, I have noticed when looking throu8gh photos on my phone I find photos and videos i know i havent taken, or screen shotted or downloaded myself - and usually it turns out to be these whatsapp photos that i never knew had been sent let alone downloaded to my phone.

So its totally credible that the video ended up on her phone without her knowledge. Her sister needs a lot of explaining to do however.

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420286

Postby AF62 » June 17th, 2021, 9:11 pm

didds wrote:I hadnt heard about the case and so googled it.

I am a member of various whatsapp groups. Some of them have many people in them some of whom send lots of photos and videos and stuff. I often miss the posts in whatspapp because by the time i come to look at whatsapp those pictures etc are many posts "behind" and i just dont know they are there.

However, I have noticed when looking throu8gh photos on my phone I find photos and videos i know i havent taken, or screen shotted or downloaded myself - and usually it turns out to be these whatsapp photos that i never knew had been sent let alone downloaded to my phone.

So its totally credible that the video ended up on her phone without her knowledge. Her sister needs a lot of explaining to do however.


I don't believe there was any issue it ended up on her phone without her requesting it and that it had automatically downloaded to her phone - although as an aside you can turn off that function in the WhatsApp settings.

The issue was -
1. When did she become aware; and
2. What did she do when she did become aware.

The evidence for the prosecution at her trial was that she had opened that page in the chat and the thumbnail of the video was on her screen for 12 seconds (although there was no evidence the video was viewed) and immediately after that she messaged her sister to say "we need to talk".

Her claim was that she didn't know it was there on her phone and when she and her sister spoke on the phone that evening and then met the day after her sister they didn't discuss it, and she only became aware of it after her sister was arrested.

The jury didn't believe her version of events and the trial judge commented that they considered it extremely far fetched that her sister who had been so shocked at this video that she decided to send it to a group of 16 people so action could be taken, a group including her senior police officer sister, didn't mention it at all when she and her senior police officer sister spoke on the phone that evening or when they met the following day.

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5 ... 3bea03550c

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420347

Postby didds » June 18th, 2021, 8:38 am

AF62 wrote:I don't believe there was any issue it ended up on her phone without her requesting it and that it had automatically downloaded to her phone


ah - OK. I was basing my comment on the couple of reports I read that both said words to the effect of

"Jurors at her trial were not convinced by her claim she was unaware of its presence on her phone, however, and she was sentenced in November 2019 to 200 hours of community service."
https://news.sky.com/story/novlett-roby ... g-12334589

On that basis I merely reported personal expereince of reciving photos and videos on my phone whilst not aware that was thne case at the time.

Cheers for the clarification :-)

Now to find out how to turn off the "download the rubbish" option in whatsapp which i find a most unintuitive app that everybody else insists on using for various organisations i am a member of and frankly seems to me an example of "lets create another app that does exactly the same as every other messaging app, including email".

didds

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420372

Postby AF62 » June 18th, 2021, 9:24 am

didds wrote:Now to find out how to turn off the "download the rubbish" option in whatsapp which i find a most unintuitive app


The 'settings' cog -> 'Storage and Data' -> 'Media Auto Download', and set everything to 'off'.

didds wrote:which i find a most unintuitive app that everybody else insists on using for various organisations i am a member of and frankly seems to me an example of "lets create another app that does exactly the same as every other messaging app, including email".

didds


Ah, but then you run into the different ways people use email.

Some people treat email as some kind of instant messaging system and expect an instant reply to their one line email. Whilst others (myself included) treat email as a form of post and will look at it once or twice a day and then prioritise the items to deal with.

The first group get very annoyed with the second group, with the second group thinking that if they wanted an immediate response then they should have used a different mechanism to contact them - something like a WhatsApp group to send the short one line message with a follow up of a longer and more detailed email.

But then you get the next group who don't understand that the WhatsApp group should be used for important and urgent messages and start sending irrelevant chat, so some people get fed up with being disturbed then turn off those group notifications and then don't get the 'urgent read and respond to this email now' message.

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420414

Postby didds » June 18th, 2021, 10:57 am

... and the demographic that only look at all messages from whatever app/format etc in the evening and dont view any of them as "instant" at all. So whatsapp (or signal, or FB messenger or SMS or whatever else) is no different to email in this regard anyway.

One of my organsations has moved away from FB group to using whatsapp. Beacaue its apparently "easier" and more likely to "reach" people. Personally i dont get that idea at all. People will either read it or not - everybody was already on FB so its nothing to do with "those that dont have an a/c"

I now have group info being sent from various groups by

_ email
- FB group
- FB messenger group
- Whatsapp
- Signal
- sometimes SMS even

Some of these organsations use a mix of the above meaning I get the info multiple times across several platforms. That in itself is Ok from central "push" info etc (if a tad tedious). But then somebody may respond only via one of these mediums - so one has to remain connected via all mediums to ensure one gets those updates/queries/responses .

21st century problems.



didds

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#420416

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 18th, 2021, 11:08 am

AF62 wrote:Ah, but then you run into the different ways people use email.

Email dates from an era when connections were intermittent. Hence why servers will queue it and retry delivery: the old default was five days for SMTP (until the early 1990s just one of competing protocols alongside UUCP and various others lost in the mists of time).

I don't see any communication medium as instant. Even face-to-face one may need think-time: we all have techniques to stall for time! The 'phone that rings is particularly intrusive if abused or over-used.

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#421281

Postby stockton » June 21st, 2021, 9:33 pm

The whole affair seems rather silly if, as the prosecution apparently agreed, only "poor judgement" was involved.
If "poor judgement" is a criterion there would seem to be a lot of public figures who should be doing community service or jail time.

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Re: Robyn Williams case - what is 'possession'

#421297

Postby Allitnil » June 21st, 2021, 11:01 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:Reminds me of the nonsense over carrying a knife. Mandatory prison sentence if you get caught with your kitchen knives while moving house? And who would want to go backpacking without a Swiss Army Knife?

The "good reason" defence applies. So a chef can carry his/her work knives around, albeit they should be in a case or roll, not his/her hand! And, yes, you can transport them to your new house, just pack them away rather than have them in a pocket or lying loose on the passenger seat...

Folding blades less than 3 inches long are perfectly legal to carry (you can even sell them to kids). If your Swiss army knife has a slightly longer blade than that then you should have little difficulty getting a judge to accept the "good reason" defence if the knife was burried in your backpack, you were carrying it for backpacking purposes and there's nothing obvious to suggest otherwise. Just don't try that defence with a 6 inch fixed blade in a city centre :lol:

The law is - of course - an ass but not quite as much of an ass as some would have us believe. Common sense applies more often than commonly believed.


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