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House theft

including wills and probate
CliffEdge
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Re: House theft

#455111

Postby CliffEdge » November 2nd, 2021, 12:05 pm

mc2fool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
CliffEdge wrote:So if I rent your flat, change my name to yours, sell the flat and pocket the money, I haven't committed a crime? The law really is an ass.


I don't think anyone is saying this. The point I think you might be missing is once the LR are fooled into changing the proprietor entry on the register, that new person is the legal owner notwithstanding the fraud. The LR could not possibly work otherwise.

Yes it is done by someone committing a crime, but once done (by whatever means), it is irreversible.

That's not so clear. Going back to Angela again...

"How do you get your property back?

Despite Angela being a victim of crime it was not straight-forward to resolve. Firstly, the Land Registry saw it as a civil matter. And rather shockingly, it said the ‘current registered proprietor’, the fraudster, would need to be asked if she objected to Angela’s name going back on the register. She was also warned that if the scammer had objected, they would have had to negotiate who rightfully owned the house. It could even have ended up at the Lands Tribunal. In Angela’s case there was no objection and she was told the house was hers again in February.
"

Ok, so it was reversed in that case, it seems 'cos the fraudster blinked, but it's difficult to imagine that if taken to the Lands Tribunal the court would unconditionally side with the fraudster, irrespective of any evidence; if that were the case then the Lands Tribunal wouldn't even have been mentioned.

So the fraudster was not arrested and charged with a crime? Unbelievable. The law really is an ass.

Avantegarde
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Re: House theft

#455174

Postby Avantegarde » November 2nd, 2021, 4:19 pm

I don't think that getting the Land Registry entry changed (dishonestly) means a fraudster has succeeded. The recent case seems to hinge on the fact that the bogus seller did not change the entry, but the new buyer did. Some years ago I heard the then head of the land registry being interviewed on BBC radio about a fraud case in which, at some point, inaccurate ownership details of a house had been entered on the register. He explained that a fraudster could not "get away with it" just by fooling the LR; that dishonest behaviour could not be enshrined in the LR details; and that once the LR was convinced of the true situation it could and would change the register to reflect the real ownership. Of course, in the latest case it may be complicated to unravel who the real owner now is. But a dishonest change to the register does not mean that a fraudster has got away with it, Scot-free.

Arborbridge
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Re: House theft

#455200

Postby Arborbridge » November 2nd, 2021, 5:47 pm

Help!! I am trying to fill in the form COG1 - the one mentioned earlier for registering one's address at the LR.

I assume the idea is that I can lodge my resident physical address with them, so that they would contact me (at this address) when some matter comes up regarding a property which I own but do not live in? - on which is let out or empty.

My query relates to the requirement for ID from their list B - utilities bills, council tax, mortgage statement.

"These must relate to the property in section 2" - and section 2 gives "the address and post code of the property that you wish to update" That's where my problem starts, because I don't even understand which property that is - but it sounds like the property I am not living in rather than my resident address.

But then, in the online notes relating to updating a contact address https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/an ... l/a_id/196
is written: If you send bills as evidence, they must relate to your own address - which seems to suggest they want proof of my resident address.

However, on the pdf document https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _2019_.pdf
it gives something a bit different, but finally the light dawns:

The following documents must be
ones you have received in the
post rather than electronically.
They must relate to the property
you are applying to change the
contact address for and show
either your existing address or a
new address that you want to add
to the register:


I take that as meaning that what they are looking for is a document addressed to my residential address, but which refers to the address I am not occupying. i.e. a utility bill addressed to me but referring to an amount oustanding on the property I am letting out, for example.
I must one from any two of the following categories:

A utility bill: must come through the post, not electronic, and be within the past three months.
A council tax bill is acceptable, but not one emailed.
A mortgage statement.


This is an almost impossible ask. Utilitiy bills are usually on-line, not posted. Any correspondence I've had has been addressed to the let property "to the occupier" and does not show my name or address. And the chances of having any "within the past three months" are vanishingly small unless the property has just been re-let.

There are no usable utility bills, neither has the Council posted an council tax demand - they came by email.
And to make matters worse, there is no mortgage.

So, it would appear I'm stuffed. And the helpline phone number? - well they don't pick up even after 20 minutes, but refer me to a contact form at the Land Registry page of gov.uk. Whether I have found the right form or not, I've immdeiately found another difficulty - the form does not allow me to ask a generic question, but need to refer to a given property - i.e. I need to quote the "title number". So to even ask a simple question, I have to go away and find out information buried somewhere.

Has anyone else been through this, and what is the solution to the apparently impossible proof of address requirements - which are hard for me but easy for a resident fraudster.

Arb.

Arborbridge
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Re: House theft

#455644

Postby Arborbridge » November 4th, 2021, 4:28 pm

I HATE FORMS.

With regards to my question about form COG1, I have now realised my error. For ID they ask for the impossible items from list B as an alternative to a copy of a passport or driver's licence.

In other words, I did not see the wording EITHER one from list A) OR two from impossible list B) but read it as needing both

That's why I would never make it as a solicitor :lol:

I put it here just in case anyone else goes down the same rabbit hole.

Peanutte
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Re: House theft

#456013

Postby Peanutte » November 6th, 2021, 9:29 am

A recent broadcast - also IIRC on You and Yours - said that all personal details - bank account numbers, mother's maiden name, passwords etc - can now be found for sale on the ordinary internet - not just the Dark Web. I really do not know how we can safely keep the details and passwords that we now have to use.

I'm old enough to remember the first time a load of personal information was mislaid. I think it was Nationwide Building Society and a member of staff left a CD with everyone's details, on a train. That was when NW first introduced those little machines for veryfying your bank tranfers.

And there have been countless security breaches since. Periodically I get funny emails to an email account I no longer use, but it is still 'live'. So I presume that the details have just been sold on to some other scammer.

Arborbridge
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Re: House theft

#456055

Postby Arborbridge » November 6th, 2021, 12:58 pm

Peanutte wrote:A recent broadcast - also IIRC on You and Yours - said that all personal details - bank account numbers, mother's maiden name, passwords etc - can now be found for sale on the ordinary internet - not just the Dark Web. I really do not know how we can safely keep the details and passwords that we now have to use.

I'm old enough to remember the first time a load of personal information was mislaid. I think it was Nationwide Building Society and a member of staff left a CD with everyone's details, on a train. That was when NW first introduced those little machines for veryfying your bank tranfers.

And there have been countless security breaches since. Periodically I get funny emails to an email account I no longer use, but it is still 'live'. So I presume that the details have just been sold on to some other scammer.


It seems odd really, because my bank details are hardly secret. Maybe they ought to be, but they must have been given to a dozen, or dozens of organisations, sole traders etc over the years just in the normal course of business. Likewise it isn't difficult to find someone's mother's maiden name or date of birth - these are public records which every home genealogist finds routinely.

However, I guess what this is telling us is that you should use your real mother's maiden name or your real date of birth and make them different for different accounts. But would some authority finds you guilty of fraud yourself?

Arborbridge
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Re: House theft

#462500

Postby Arborbridge » December 2nd, 2021, 7:40 am

Along this general idea, folks might like to listen to "you and Yours" radio 4, 1st Dec, first item.

It describes how a woman nearly lost her house (and control of her finances) by a fraudster who obtained power of attorney over her affairs. It was all done officially and the fraudster (a woman called "Julie" whose voice was heard in a phone recording explaining that the woman had "gone mad") simply filled in the necessary forms with false witnesses at real addresses. This was then stamped a registered by the appropriate government department so giving her control over the woman's affairs.

From what I gather, the Justice Department (apologies if that isn't the correct Department), like the Land Registry, seems to act to register rather than investigate - they did not check any of the people or addresses on the form.

The first the victim new was when a neighbour contacted her, and she found her locks had been changed. Fortunately, an astute solicitor grew suspicious, refused to do the conveyance and reported it. Subsequently, the Department of Justice (or whatever) cancelled the power of attorney, but the fraudster still has the original and has not been found.

This type of fraud really depends on the house being empty (or tenanted?) for a long period, and interestingly the perpetrtor must have observed that fact. That suggests she may have been local or an insider who knew the victim was away nursing her dying mother.

It was suggested this could be defeated by putting a restriction on the title deeds, but that till leaves a fraudster with power of attorney concerning banks accounts etc. Notably, the police were not interested even though a fraud had been committed. (In fairness, it wasn't clear if they had been contacted again after the power of attorney had been official revoked on discovery of the fraud)


Arb.

stevensfo
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Re: House theft

#462548

Postby stevensfo » December 2nd, 2021, 9:59 am

Arborbridge wrote:
Peanutte wrote:A recent broadcast - also IIRC on You and Yours - said that all personal details - bank account numbers, mother's maiden name, passwords etc - can now be found for sale on the ordinary internet - not just the Dark Web. I really do not know how we can safely keep the details and passwords that we now have to use.

I'm old enough to remember the first time a load of personal information was mislaid. I think it was Nationwide Building Society and a member of staff left a CD with everyone's details, on a train. That was when NW first introduced those little machines for veryfying your bank tranfers.

And there have been countless security breaches since. Periodically I get funny emails to an email account I no longer use, but it is still 'live'. So I presume that the details have just been sold on to some other scammer.


It seems odd really, because my bank details are hardly secret. Maybe they ought to be, but they must have been given to a dozen, or dozens of organisations, sole traders etc over the years just in the normal course of business. Likewise it isn't difficult to find someone's mother's maiden name or date of birth - these are public records which every home genealogist finds routinely.

However, I guess what this is telling us is that you should use your real mother's maiden name or your real date of birth and make them different for different accounts. But would some authority finds you guilty of fraud yourself?


Apart from things like passport applications, I think that the maiden name part is just for security questions, so you can choose whichever you want. Having a very fertile and Monty Python sense of humour, I tend to choose very silly answers to questions. ;) Of course, your DOB should be correct for banks etc, but anything else, I wouldn't dream of using my real DOB. Changing the day and year by one digit works well for social media.
As for fraud, how could you be found guilty of fraud if you haven't committed fraud? As far as I understand the law, you can call yourself Genghis Khan and give your year of birth as 1158, just as long as you don't use it to gain any pecuniary advantage, i.e. commit fraud. ;)

e.g. Trying to get your state pension backdated nine hundred years. 8-)

Steve


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