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Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

including wills and probate
WrenChasen
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Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#503056

Postby WrenChasen » May 26th, 2022, 7:56 pm

I apologise, this is much longer than I expected it to be, but I’d like whoever reads it to understand why I’m reluctant to simply head to the Small Claims Court to resolve this matter.

Background: My older sister died last year. I am supporting her much older husband (aged 86), who is physically not in very good shape, but coping, and who still has mental capacity.

They used a will-writing company in Bristol when they made their wills and LPAs back in 2013. Within a couple of days of my sister’s death, their “consultant” had made an appointment with my BIL to see him at home. I also attended that meeting. After the initial expression of sympathy, it was clear the reason for the visit was to obtain an instruction to obtain probate, which was not forthcoming. He also told my BIL to “push the boat out” for the funeral as he had £3,800 to spend on it, which I thought was odd, but didn’t pursue the subject as I assumed my BIL had some sort of arrangement with this company.

I've now discovered payment for my sister’s funeral was actually made directly to the undertakers by my BIL some three weeks later.

Fast forward a year, and my BIL has handed me a pile of paperwork – bank statements, correspondence, deeds, etc – and asked me to sort it out and keep him on track.

What I found was a payment to the will-writing company for £3,800 and a letter from them dated after the day payment was taken thanking my BIL for his instruction to set up a family trust, but my BIL has confirmed he has heard nothing further from them on the subject of a trust.

Having done some internet research on this company, I believe that while they do some things right, they do tend to prey on older people, taking money in advance for work they do not subsequently undertake.

I really want to retrieve this money for my BIL, but I’m very wary of the company owner, who, judging from his responses to negative reviews, seems deeply unpleasant, arrogant, and inclined to ignore authority.

Also, my view of him is reinforced by an email exchange I had with him last year, when he was trying to get my BIL to change his will. When I asked why he thought it necessary, this was his response:

"...it was to remove his wife as she was in care and his will left everything to her and would just be taken to pay care fees which is what will happen if he does not sign the will we changed."

Apart from the bullying tone, I’m fairly sure the action he was proposing would be viewed as deprivation of assets.

So far, we’ve sent them the following letter, drafted by me and signed by my BIL, but haven’t received a response. I would be very grateful for any guidance on how to deal with this company and its owner. I have a feeling he would laugh in the face of the Small Claims Court.

“Dear Sirs

Gift of xx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx Road into a Family Trust

First, I would like to thank you for returning the LPA documents to my replacement attorney, Mrs xxxxx xxxxx.

Moving on, in April last year I was visited at home by one of your consultants and a discussion took place about putting my above-mentioned home into a family trust. A sum of £3,800 was paid to you on 22 April 2021, and I am in receipt your acknowledgement of instruction letter dated 23 April 2021, but have received no other correspondence from your firm.

Unfortunately, my wife died less than two weeks later, on 3 May 2021, and as you will appreciate, other considerations have been on my mind for the past year and the matter of a family trust has not been uppermost.

Now having given this matter some thought, and in consultation with my family, I no longer wish to proceed with a family trust. Therefore, I am now requesting reimbursement of the £3,800 paid in advance for this work.

I look forward to hearing from you in the near future.

Yours faithfully”

Any help/advice you can give would be much appreciated.

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#503064

Postby GoSeigen » May 26th, 2022, 8:27 pm

If they've done none of the work agreed with them then your claim for a refund should be a good one, but it may be worth reading through the consumer protection law to get a sense of how the elapsed time affects your rights under that law.

GS

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#503096

Postby Clitheroekid » May 27th, 2022, 12:48 am

Some of these will writing companies are complete rip off merchants. £3,800 for a so called family trust (also called `asset protection trusts') is extortionate. It's a standard, off the shelf document, that would probably take half an hour at most to prepare.

It would also be extremely unlikely to work. As you point out, the deprivation of assets laws would almost certainly operate in this situation. Your BIL was clearly in a condition where the likelihood of requiring care was very high, so it would be extremely easy for the local authority to prove their case.

So the advice to set up the trust was almost certainly wrong, and was effectively just a fee generation exercise, taking advantage of a vulnerable person.

Furthermore, it appears that they haven't actually done any work anyway, so I would think you have an extremely strong case for a total refund. Also, if the firm is a member of one of their trade associations, such as the Society of Will Writers, it might be worth contacting them - https://www.willwriters.com/public/making-a-complaint/ However, they don't appear to have any real powers to do much, and as they are financed by Will Writers I suspect they would not be very effective.

As you have received no reply the next step is to impose a deadline for a refund - say 7 days - and if they still don't respond then I would indeed be inclined to go down the small claims route. And don't forget to claim interest, which is claimable under section 69 County Courts Act 1984 at the extremely generous rate of 8% p.a.

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#503099

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » May 27th, 2022, 5:47 am

WrenChasen wrote:I apologise, this is much longer than I expected it to be, but I’d like whoever reads it to understand why I’m reluctant to simply head to the Small Claims Court to resolve this matter.

Background: My older sister died last year. I am supporting her much older husband (aged 86), who is physically not in very good shape, but coping, and who still has mental capacity.

They used a will-writing company in Bristol when they made their wills and LPAs back in 2013. Within a couple of days of my sister’s death, their “consultant” had made an appointment with my BIL to see him at home. I also attended that meeting. After the initial expression of sympathy, it was clear the reason for the visit was to obtain an instruction to obtain probate, which was not forthcoming. He also told my BIL to “push the boat out” for the funeral as he had £3,800 to spend on it, which I thought was odd, but didn’t pursue the subject as I assumed my BIL had some sort of arrangement with this company.

I've now discovered payment for my sister’s funeral was actually made directly to the undertakers by my BIL some three weeks later.

Fast forward a year, and my BIL has handed me a pile of paperwork – bank statements, correspondence, deeds, etc – and asked me to sort it out and keep him on track.

What I found was a payment to the will-writing company for £3,800 and a letter from them dated after the day payment was taken thanking my BIL for his instruction to set up a family trust, but my BIL has confirmed he has heard nothing further from them on the subject of a trust.

Having done some internet research on this company, I believe that while they do some things right, they do tend to prey on older people, taking money in advance for work they do not subsequently undertake.

I really want to retrieve this money for my BIL, but I’m very wary of the company owner, who, judging from his responses to negative reviews, seems deeply unpleasant, arrogant, and inclined to ignore authority.

Also, my view of him is reinforced by an email exchange I had with him last year, when he was trying to get my BIL to change his will. When I asked why he thought it necessary, this was his response:

"...it was to remove his wife as she was in care and his will left everything to her and would just be taken to pay care fees which is what will happen if he does not sign the will we changed."

Apart from the bullying tone, I’m fairly sure the action he was proposing would be viewed as deprivation of assets.

So far, we’ve sent them the following letter, drafted by me and signed by my BIL, but haven’t received a response. I would be very grateful for any guidance on how to deal with this company and its owner. I have a feeling he would laugh in the face of the Small Claims Court.

“Dear Sirs

Gift of xx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx Road into a Family Trust

First, I would like to thank you for returning the LPA documents to my replacement attorney, Mrs xxxxx xxxxx.

Moving on, in April last year I was visited at home by one of your consultants and a discussion took place about putting my above-mentioned home into a family trust. A sum of £3,800 was paid to you on 22 April 2021, and I am in receipt your acknowledgement of instruction letter dated 23 April 2021, but have received no other correspondence from your firm.

Unfortunately, my wife died less than two weeks later, on 3 May 2021, and as you will appreciate, other considerations have been on my mind for the past year and the matter of a family trust has not been uppermost.

Now having given this matter some thought, and in consultation with my family, I no longer wish to proceed with a family trust. Therefore, I am now requesting reimbursement of the £3,800 paid in advance for this work.

I look forward to hearing from you in the near future.

Yours faithfully”

Any help/advice you can give would be much appreciated.

Hi Wren,

Just a quick question if I may please. There's a reason I ask. You mention that the "consultant" suggested "pushing the boat out" on your sisters funeral as your brother in law had £3,800 to spend on it. I'm a little confused and would like to understand this further please. Was there a funeral plan? If so can you confirm which company it was with please? Or are you saying that the £3,800 was being "redirected" by the will writing company to the Funeral Directors as payment for the funeral expenses? Or have both the Funeral Directors and the Will Writers been paid £3,800 each?

Please do let me know.

Thank you

Take care

AiY(D)
(AKA Kimnhim)

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#503135

Postby WrenChasen » May 27th, 2022, 10:40 am

Hi Kim
I'm not at home at the moment. Back on Monday and will respond then.

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#503788

Postby WrenChasen » May 30th, 2022, 3:29 pm

Just a quick question if I may please. There's a reason I ask. You mention that the "consultant" suggested "pushing the boat out" on your sisters funeral as your brother in law had £3,800 to spend on it. I'm a little confused and would like to understand this further please. Was there a funeral plan? If so can you confirm which company it was with please? Or are you saying that the £3,800 was being "redirected" by the will writing company to the Funeral Directors as payment for the funeral expenses? Or have both the Funeral Directors and the Will Writers been paid £3,800 each?


They were totally separate payments. The £3,800 was for the family trust and was paid about three weeks before my sister died.

Based on the following clause in my sister's will, I think there was a funeral plan:

"I direct that my funeral be undertaken in accordance with my pre-paid funeral plan arrangement and I declare that any additional funeral charges or expenses not covered by the funds available from the plan shall be paid from and be a first charge on my estate."

However, I can't find any paperwork relating to a funeral plan in the piles of paperwork my BIL has handed me. What I think has happened is that when their wills were prepared back in 2013 they were persuaded to take out some sort of prepayment plan with the will-writing company, and that in the intervening 12 years my BIL has lost track of, or mislaid, the paperwork relating to any funeral plan (if, indeed, there was any paperwork).

I haven't seen too many wills to make a comparison, but I think that clause is a little odd as it concentrates solely on funeral costs; not the usual "testamentary expenses". I have always thought it a given that funeral costs were the first item payable from a deceased's estate without the need to wait for probate. I'm also a bit confused about the reference to a first charge; it seems a little heavy-handed.

I don't know how this company operates internally in terms of record-keeping, but my feeling is the consultant noticed a credit of £3,800 before he came to see my BIL and made the assumption it was for funeral costs. I honestly didn't know what he was talking about (and I suspect neither did he), but given my sister had just died and my BIL was in a state of shock, I didn't want to ask what would have been an insensitive question at that time.
In the event, my BIL made a separate payment directly to undertakers of his choosing. At that point, I hadn't seen my sister's will and had no idea there was a pre-paid funeral plan (although, thinking back since my sister's death, I do remember them saying years ago they had their affairs in order - wills, LPAs, funerals paid for, etc).

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#503855

Postby Clitheroekid » May 30th, 2022, 8:50 pm

WrenChasen wrote:Based on the following clause in my sister's will, I think there was a funeral plan:

"I direct that my funeral be undertaken in accordance with my pre-paid funeral plan arrangement and I declare that any additional funeral charges or expenses not covered by the funds available from the plan shall be paid from and be a first charge on my estate."

However, I can't find any paperwork relating to a funeral plan in the piles of paperwork my BIL has handed me. What I think has happened is that when their wills were prepared back in 2013 they were persuaded to take out some sort of prepayment plan with the will-writing company, and that in the intervening 12 years my BIL has lost track of, or mislaid, the paperwork relating to any funeral plan (if, indeed, there was any paperwork).

A lot of these scammy will writing companies have tie-ups with other scammy companies, and most of them sell funeral plans on commission. I suspect there are quite a few plans that are never claimed on, as the next of kin / executors don't know they exist, which means a nice bonus for the plan operators.

However, if they did indeed arrange a sale of a funeral plan then their own records should provide details of the company that provided the plan, so you can contact them and find out the position.

You can also try a trace through the Funeral Planning Authority - https://funeralplanningauthority.co.uk/trace-a-plan/ - though it's not compulsory for plan operators to register.The situation should improve in July when they have to register with the FCA.

I haven't seen too many wills to make a comparison, but I think that clause is a little odd as it concentrates solely on funeral costs; not the usual "testamentary expenses". I have always thought it a given that funeral costs were the first item payable from a deceased's estate without the need to wait for probate. I'm also a bit confused about the reference to a first charge; it seems a little heavy-handed.

I quite agree. I've never seen such a clause, either. But it's perhaps not surprising if the will writing company was hand in glove with the funeral plan operator. They may have realised that there was little chance that the plan would actually cover the cost of the funeral, so wanted to make sure that their tame undertaker (also part of the cosy cartel) got paid before anyone else!

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#504077

Postby WrenChasen » May 31st, 2022, 7:52 pm

You can also try a trace through the Funeral Planning Authority - https://funeralplanningauthority.co.uk/trace-a-plan/ - though it's not compulsory for plan operators to register.The situation should improve in July when they have to register with the FCA.


Thank you for the link. This is the response I received; I think I'll give it a week and move on from there.

"Your request to trace a funeral plan has been passed to FPA registered providers. If a provider has a potential match for the plan they will contact you directly within the next few days. If you hear nothing then no plan has been identified."

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#506500

Postby WrenChasen » June 11th, 2022, 1:30 pm

You can also try a trace through the Funeral Planning Authority - https://funeralplanningauthority.co.uk/trace-a-plan/ - though it's not compulsory for plan operators to register.The situation should improve in July when they have to register with the FCA.

Thank you for the link. This is the response I received; I think I'll give it a week and move on from there.

"Your request to trace a funeral plan has been passed to FPA registered providers. If a provider has a potential match for the plan they will contact you directly within the next few days. If you hear nothing then no plan has been identified."


It was worth a try, but I've not been contacted by any registered funeral provider and now need progress with a claim against WDS Associates (I've decided to name them in case anyone reading this thread is thinking of using their "services". No doubt a moderator will remove this if it's not allowed).

I think I could have a logistical problem with making a claim: My BIL lives in Bristol, doesn't use the internet, and I live over 100 miles from him. While he has mental capacity, he's definitely slowing down a bit (without wishing to insult him, think the Jim Trott character in The Vicar of Dibley), is physically frail, and has deteriorating eyesight. At the moment, I write letters on his behalf and send them to him with SAEs for him to sign and post.

Having read through the Small Claims procedure, I can't see that I could initiate a and pursue a claim on his behalf, but he's definitely not capable of doing it himself, and would probably get tied up in knots in court if it came to an actual hearing.

Is there any way to overcome these obstacles?

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#507009

Postby Clitheroekid » June 13th, 2022, 11:29 pm

Thanks for identifying the company involved. I’ve had a look at them, and it would seem that grossly overcharging seems to be their modus operandi.

For example, I had a look at their `Fixed Fee Probate' page - https://www.wdsassociates.co.uk/services/probate/ - and some of the prices quoted are simply unbelievable. I don’t know what the different levels referred to mean, but for the simple estate valued at £145,000 the `level 1' service is £4,350 and disbursements.

For what is these days a quite normal estate valued at £730,000 level 1 service is £21,900 and disbursements and an estate valued at £2.5 million – not at all unusual, and not particularly complicated to administer in most cases – incurs a charge of £75,000 and disbursements.

These charges are frankly extortionate. They are far more than solicitors would charge, but you are dealing here with an entirely unregulated company, unlike solicitors who are governed by all sorts of rules and regulations.

To add insult to injury, the small print says that "In order to carry out our Probate and Estate Administration services more often than not we have to appoint third party organisations to provide specialist services. The costs of these services are disbursements of the Estate and will be charged in addition to the fixed fee" my emphasis).

These “specialist services“ include conveyancing by outside solicitors, but if solicitors were actually dealing with the estate they would deal with the conveyancing themselves, and even with conveyancing charges the overall bill would be far less than these figures.

They also crow about being awarded “Winner of the 2020 Bristol Prestige Award". However, these “Prestige Awards" are a largely meaningless marketing exercise, as this thread from UK business forums makes clear - https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/thre ... il.411331/

I'm sorry about the rant, but as you can tell I feel very strongly about companies like this, particularly as most of their customers are probably elderly and vulnerable.

But (at last!) to deal with your specific issue the only person who is legally entitled to bring the claim is your BIL (I'm assuming he's the sole executor of your sister's estate and that probate has been granted). You cannot do so on his behalf, and neither can anybody else apart from a solicitor. He could appoint you as his attorney under a power of attorney, but unfortunately an attorney is (despite the name) not allowed to issue legal proceedings.

However, you don’t need to use the online service to issue a claim. It can still be done on paper. Moreover, if they defend the case you can ask for the claim to be assessed by a judge without a hearing, which may be helpful.

A more unusual, but perfectly legal solution, would be for him to assign the claim to you. This just needs him to sign a form of assignment, and you can then bring the claim in your own name. This is what debt collectors do all the time. However, you would need some legal input to do this.

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#508235

Postby stewamax » June 19th, 2022, 9:28 am

Clitheroekid wrote:A more unusual, but perfectly legal solution, would be for him to assign the claim to you. This just needs him to sign a form of assignment, and you can then bring the claim in your own name.

Excellent idea, especially as if 'Mr WDS' realises that he now has a younger, mentally stronger and and less malleable creditor to deal with, he might be less obstructive.

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#508878

Postby WrenChasen » June 22nd, 2022, 4:32 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:A more unusual, but perfectly legal solution, would be for him to assign the claim to you. This just needs him to sign a form of assignment, and you can then bring the claim in your own name. This is what debt collectors do all the time. However, you would need some legal input to do this.


First, apologies for disappearing for over a week.

Second, thank you, CK, for the above suggestion and Stewamax for endorsing it. I think this is the way to go and I will report back in due course.

On a personal note, the way in which my late sister and her husband have been "rolled over" by this company makes me very angry. It appears they were persuaded to make wills, LPAs for both finance and welfare, and pay for the cost of their funerals all in one hit. Also, from the paperwork I've managed to unearth, it appears they also paid in advance for WDS's "five star service", whatever that means.

Earlier this year, I was engaged in an email exchange with Mike Diamond (the company's owner/director along with his wife) to request the original LPAs for my sister and BIL, which the OPG, for some reason, had sent directly to WDS. His final email to me was an attempt to elicit a positive review:-

Always happy to be of assistance.

As mother has been a long standing client maybe you would be so kind as to post a review on google with regards to the service we provide even outside normal office hours?

The link below is to some recent reviews of WDS on Trustpilot. I think the explanation for the 50/50 split in the positives and negatives is that people who've just had their wills prepared for a nominal sum are delighted and happy to leave a review, little realising the problems that await them and their families years down the line. (My sister's will contains a paragraph relating to her share of the house which might well give me problems when the time comes to execute my BIL's will...but that's for the future.)

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/wdsassociates.co.uk

I'm sure there are some perfectly capable and honest will-writers out there, but really it's one industry which is well overdue for regulation.

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#508888

Postby scrumpyjack » June 22nd, 2022, 5:44 pm

WrenChasen wrote:I'm sure there are some perfectly capable and honest will-writers out there, but really it's one industry which is well overdue for regulation.


I have every sympathy for your family having been duped by these sharks, but I really think it is not a good idea for the state to try and regulate everything. It is costly and often prevents sensible people from doing reasonable things. General laws on firms having to act in their client's best interests and harsh penalties for 'misselling' are, IMO, a better route to go. Perhaps those principles might be a line of attack in this case?

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#509025

Postby WrenChasen » June 23rd, 2022, 12:05 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:I have every sympathy for your family having been duped by these sharks, but I really think it is not a good idea for the state to try and regulate everything. It is costly and often prevents sensible people from doing reasonable things. General laws on firms having to act in their client's best interests and harsh penalties for 'misselling' are, IMO, a better route to go. Perhaps those principles might be a line of attack in this case?


I agree blanket regulation by the state is not the way to go; there are many examples worldwide to prove the case against. However, will-writers and will-writing companies is an area which requires close scrutiny, and some form of indemnity and consequent redress if something goes wrong. A poorly-worded will can have catastrophic consequences many years down the line.

In this particular case, principles and WDS Associates Legal Services Ltd don't belong in the same sentence.

I remember my sister and BIL being quite pleased with themselves just after they signed their wills; they thought they had it all sewn up - wills, LPAs, funerals paid for, etc. At 86, my BIL is old enough to be my father, and I treat him with due deference; it's been difficult trying to address the fact he's been the victim of rogues because he's not feeling too good about himself right now, and that's sad to see. If I could find the relevant paperwork, I would be attempting to recover more than the £3,800 charged for a Trust which was never set up.

These quasi-legal firms know they only way they will be brought to book is through the courts; they also know most people will stop short of taking legal action. A regulatory body with a proper complaints procedure such as that which governs "real" solicitors is long overdue for will-writers such as WDS, who currently enjoy complete impunity for their nefarious actions.

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#509031

Postby Dod101 » June 23rd, 2022, 12:22 pm

I feel very sorry for the op in this case and of course for the late sister and brother in law who it would appear acted in what they thought was the best interests of everyone involved or likely to be involved in their affairs. Is the lesson from this not that in drawing up Wills we are much better off using a solicitor, and preferably one who has been introduced by someone we can trust?

Dod

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#509079

Postby scrumpyjack » June 23rd, 2022, 5:17 pm

Dod101 wrote:I feel very sorry for the op in this case and of course for the late sister and brother in law who it would appear acted in what they thought was the best interests of everyone involved or likely to be involved in their affairs. Is the lesson from this not that in drawing up Wills we are much better off using a solicitor, and preferably one who has been introduced by someone we can trust?

Dod


I absolutely agree and have found that solicitor's fees for drafting Wills are generally very modest (just don't make them the Executor!)

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Re: Problem with Will-Writing Company (Long!)

#510401

Postby WrenChasen » June 28th, 2022, 8:05 pm

Following from from CK's suggestion that I should get the claim assigned to me, I've contacted four solicitors in my area for estimates to undertake the work. Apart from one solicitor who said she didn't think assigning the claim was possible, the lowest estimate I've obtained is £300. I've no idea how much work is involved and unable to judge whether this is reasonable.

[Unfortunately, I've had two adverse experiences with solicitors; the first was resolved by the predecessor to the SRA (the name of which escapes me at the moment) in my favour, and the second involved a solicitor who was handling my divorce, and who asked me to sign a second Legal Aid application as the first one had been inadvertently destroyed by a secretary. Long story very short: I and several others were interviewed by the police who were investigating him for fraud. He was convicted and received a custodial sentence. I've tried to keep an open mind, and not tar all solicitors with the same brush, but it does have an effect.]

I hope the above explains why I'm dithering at this point. I'm more than happy to pay, but have no way of knowing if £300 is the going rate. If it is, the costs of trying to reclaim the £3,800 for my BIL will be around £500, which is a lot if he/I lose the case. My understanding from digging around the internet is trusts have to be registered and as WDS failed to undertake the work they would struggle to find a defence, but I'm still very wary they'd find a way to wriggle out.

Any thoughts/experiences of the small claims court would be much appreciated.


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