The Lemon Fool

@production100. Do you still wish to move, or has CV changed your mind? It would seem a shame for everything to collapse into litigation over the actual moving of furniture. Can everyone in the chain come to an accommodation abour the vacant posession side of things?

Hi JohnB

Yes we do still want to move - we are still mostly packed although we have had to unpack a few things to live on. With the virus we would want to talk to the removals company about the practicalities of course.

It seems unbelievable that we are in this position when a week earlier and we would have been in our chosen house.

Our buyer says his moving company would have still moved him in spite of the law change (presumably illegally at the time although now allowed). However his was only a short distance. Our move is a 3 day move to a different part of the country and our moving company will not do it. Nor will any of the others we have approached.

Chris

Sorry, missed your second point. No he is not prepared to consider any other way of resolving the problem.

Chris

production100 wrote:Hi JohnB

Yes we do still want to move - we are still mostly packed although we have had to unpack a few things to live on. With the virus we would want to talk to the removals company about the practicalities of course.

It seems unbelievable that we are in this position when a week earlier and we would have been in our chosen house.

Our buyer says his moving company would have still moved him in spite of the law change (presumably illegally at the time although now allowed). However his was only a short distance. Our move is a 3 day move to a different part of the country and our moving company will not do it. Nor will any of the others we have approached.

Chris

Is there a storage facility nearby?

You have already identified a company a "short distance" away that is prepared to operate, have you asked them about transferring the majority of your items into storage in the meantime, allowing you to make the move to "a different part of the country" with your essentials etc.?

Is there a storage facility nearby?

That is something we may well be forced to look into, although goodness knows where we would stay.

We cannot do much today, but will talk to our solicitor on Monday. It is a short chain of 3 but unfortunately we are in the middle, so have to try to deal with both ends. Fortunately the person we are buying from is understanding and sensible.

Chris

production100 wrote:

Is there a storage facility nearby?

... although goodness knows where we would stay.

The house you have contracted to buy perhaps?

production100 wrote:The exemption to move house was added after the date we were contracted to move and was therefore not relevant.

Our buyer says his moving company would have still moved him in spite of the law change (presumably illegally at the time although now allowed).

I think you've misunderstood the legal position.

Until the Health Protection Regulations became law last week there were no legal restrictions on movement. There was only guidance in place, which was not legally binding.

Consequently, your buyer is quite correct - it was not illegal for the removal men to move him before the Regulations became law, and it's not illegal for them to do so now.

Although I can well appreciate that it would be very difficult and inconvenient to move I can't see that it would be completely impossible. Whilst staying put may well be your best option from a purely practical point of view it could also be a very expensive one if your buyer refuses to release you from the contract.

I'd be interested to hear what your solicitor has to say.

'man with a van' might be worth checking out
there are masses of folk who dont consider that 'government recommendations' dont apply to them
(just look at the news!)

obviously i am not advocating this but if 'needs must'........

dealtn wrote:

production100 wrote:

Is there a storage facility nearby?

... although goodness knows where we would stay.

The house you have contracted to buy perhaps?

Holiday cottages are still available. However you will likely need to deal direct and not via the agencies. So check the agency websites to identify a location where you can sensibly be an independent household, then figure out how to contact the owner direct.

My GF has one such holiday cottage. Someone in a very similar situation as you has done just this.

regards, dspp

Thanks Clitheroekid for your advice.

I know these times are probably unique and therefore the legal position must be untested - and I certainly do not want to be the one to test it,- but the regulations from the Government that you must not leave home (with the detailed exceptions) was issued under emergency powers on 23 March as a measure under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. The details stated 'every citizen must comply with these new measures.' Surely then this is legally binding.

There was no indication that this was a recommendation it was a clear 'must'. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others is the basic page. This looks very like the other pages which I accept were not legally binding and said should etc. These were issued by the Government using emergency powers under the granted powers of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984.

It was only on 26 March that these were replaced with the new 'Coronavirus act'.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/emergency-powers details this part way down the page.

I would welcome your views.

We are looking into all the alternatives of course but we have a large house and a pantechnicon is needed so not a simple case of a man with a van.

Chris

production100 wrote:Thanks Clitheroekid for your advice.

I know these times are probably unique and therefore the legal position must be untested - and I certainly do not want to be the one to test it,- but the regulations from the Government that you must not leave home (with the detailed exceptions) was issued under emergency powers on 23 March as a measure under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. The details stated 'every citizen must comply with these new measures.' Surely then this is legally binding.

There was no indication that this was a recommendation it was a clear 'must'. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others is the basic page. This looks very like the other pages which I accept were not legally binding and said should etc. These were issued by the Government using emergency powers under the granted powers of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984.

It was only on 26 March that these were replaced with the new 'Coronavirus act'.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/emergency-powers details this part way down the page.

I would welcome your views.

We are looking into all the alternatives of course but we have a large house and a pantechnicon is needed so not a simple case of a man with a van.

Chris

The full legal text of the legislation restricting movement is available at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020 ... ction/made

Key bits:
From Section 2:
"The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Business Closure) (England) Regulations 2020(1) (the “first Regulations”) are revoked."

Section 6:
Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need -

followed by a non-exhaustive list of excuses which includes:
(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

(which covers a trip to a DIY shed to pick up, for example, a new lock)

(l)to move house where reasonably necessary;

Note that the list is not exhaustive, the use of the words "includes the need" in the first sentence of 6(2) makes this clear.

The next interesting bit is Section 7 Restrictions on gatherings

7. During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except—

(a)where all the persons in the gathering are members of the same household,
...
(d)where reasonably necessary—
(i)to facilitate a house move,

Powers to enforce the regulations (rather than punish) are in section 8, and powers to sanction are in section 9.

If anyone is worried about overzealous enforcement of the rules, answering any officer's questions honestly and politely, would probably result in a "OK, continue, but work safely" response. If want something to wave under an officer's nose, then a print out of the SI as seen at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made , with the following bits highlighted would quickly highlight that what you are doing is "reasonable".

6(1)
6(2)(opening sentence)
6(2)(i)
7 (opening sentence)
7 (d)(i)
9 (1) (whole section)

Thanks Pochisoldi. It helps to see the actual legislation currently in force.

Unfortunately our move came right between the emergency powers public health measures and this legislation. We were due to move out on 25 March and move in on 26 March.

If we can somehow find a way to move out of this house it looks to me as if we could travel to temporary accommodation within the legislation - given as you say polite responses with some paperwork to back it up. I would have to unpack the printer again to print it all out!

Chris

production100 wrote:
If we can somehow find a way to move out of this house it looks to me as if we could travel to temporary accommodation within the legislation - given as you say polite responses with some paperwork to back it up. I would have to unpack the printer again to print it all out!

Chris

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, honestly, and sorry, but what is it that is preventing you from moving into the house you have contracted to buy, and require temporary accommodation? I thought the issue was getting removals men. Do you also have the issue of taking vacant possession, or something else?

Hi Dealtn,

The person we are buying from is in a similar position to us - there are no removal companies able to move him out and into his new house. He is at least being reasonable and saying that we can move as soon as we can both find a moving company and agree a date. Something I would have thought any reasonable person would agree to in these extreme circumstances.

We are trying to be sympathetic to his dilemma as he is unwell and has other personal problems.

Our problem seems quite simple: 1. find a moving company with large storage to move our goods into storage. 2. find somewhere to live for a month or two until moving is possible again.

Chris

production100 wrote: 2. find somewhere to live for a month or two until moving is possible again.

Chris

= >> Go in to a holiday cottage. They are desperate for rentals.

regards, dspp

dspp wrote:

production100 wrote: 2. find somewhere to live for a month or two until moving is possible again.

Chris

= >> Go in to a holiday cottage. They are desperate for rentals.

regards, dspp

Not everyone can afford to consider any such solution.

I wonder if any insurance would pay up for Chris's problems arising from inability to move/fulfil the contract? If so, might it be worth getting the insurer involved?

We seem to be getting to a solution.

We think we have found a company able to move our goods into storage, and also a holiday cottage to move into.

Many thanks to all for all the help and suggestions. Still a lot to organize, but I feel more confident now that there seems to be a way forward.

Will try to report back later, but I may be out of touch for a while as we finish packing etc.

Chris

We have managed to move out and are now living in temporary accommodation in a holiday cottage. The move was to say the least stressful, but having moved out and the completion having gone through we are at last unwinding.

The holiday cottage people have been very supportive - doing their best to make us welcome. We have managed to unpack our food etc., but have a car full of things we do not need while we are here, but which we could not give to the 'man with a van' moving company such as tins of paint, items with flammables etc. The stupid thing is that having packed the house with the expectation that we would move into our new house straight away we find that we do not have some of the basic things that are rarely needed, such as envelopes, paper, spare batteries etc. However nothing too serious that we cannot do without for a few weeks. Fortunately the last minute nature of the move meant that we put many of the final items we were using in the house into the car.

So thanks all for being a good bouncing board for ideas!

Chris

So have you bought your new house but now have squatters in it?

Stonge wrote:So have you bought your new house but now have squatters in it?

I can't believe his solicitors allowed that to happen without financial recompense.