Overcharged for new boiler installation?

[bruncher]

I had a heating engineer visit on a Friday as I was experiencing problems with the system.

He condemned the gas boiler (although 'allowed us' to use it over the weekend before he commenced replacement the following Monday).

He quoted a total price for labour and parts. labour was to be for two men over three days. Total was £11,568. The invoice does not itemise materials i.e. we do not know what the charge was for the new tank, boiler etc.

During the third day, he said we needed extra work - another two days - total £5,310. Again, the parts used not itemised on invoice.

In the middle of the job, I felt under pressure and that I had no option but to agree. I could not envisage another engieer agreeing to take on a part-completed job. The house was very cold.

Following all the work, the boiler worked for two days and then failed. We need - according to the same engineer - to replace the gas pipe from the meter to the boiler because black dust - fine metal particulate - is triggering the boiler filter. I have not had an exact quote but expect this to be about £600

My question is - should the original quote have included the extra work costing £5,310 ? The extra work was a powerflush, also the recommended replacement of radiator valves. Surely it would have been predictable that a powerflush would be required, and so this should have been included in the original quote? I asked the engineer about this - his reply was that he didn't want to quote for something that might not be necessary.

Can I make any claim against this company? I should have obtained alternative quotes, but it is hard in the face of pressure when someone is offering to solve your problems and can start next Monday, and we might not have felt gouged if they had stuck by the original quote as covering everything necessary. Another thing, they have damaged the radiator they removed to facilitate the power flush - it has enamel chipped off and scratches.

[Dod101]

To me, the quote for the extra work would have been on the high side for the entire boiler replacement at £5310. I am sorry to say this guy sounds like a cowboy unless you live in a 15 room mansion house.

Presumably you have parted with the cash? If not do not give him a penny. I would get another heating engineer/plumber in (recommended by friends/family) to check the system and the work done and not let this guy near the place again. They could report on the work carried out and assess the problem with the boiler.

Otherwise what can we say? Certainly a second quote was essential but it is a bit late for that now. Your chances of a successful claim against them? Sounds like it but you need to weigh up the chances of getting some money back against the costs of taking action

I think you can remove the ? from the Subject heading.

Dod

[bruncher]

I remembered this morning that we have legal expenses cover with our Home Insurance, so I will call them later.

[Crazbe7]

Based on the information you have provided, I can only assume that you have unfortunately selected a rouge heating engineer. The costs seem extortionately high, but you may have a very large property.

If the boiler was dangerous and therefore subject to being condemned no professional heating engineer would have 'allowed' you to keep it running over the weekend. They would have explained why they had condemned the boiler and either disconnected it or the gas supply to it. Standard industry practice. It should have been in a dangerous condition and a significant risk to you for it to be condemned.

I have recently been through this process in one of my properties. I did not have your immediate concerns on keeping warm and fully understand and sympathize with the situation you faced.

Have you paid by Credit Card? You may have some redress, but no experience of this in practice.

Is your heating engineer a member of any trade body. They may have a complaints procedure. It may not help you, but may assist others in avoiding this individual/company.

Crazbe7

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Hi bruncher,

I left a post on another board yesterday which is hopefully self explanatory. You may be able to get some rough idea of costs from this.

Gaggsy wrote:
I've just had a quote for a replacement for my approx. 33 year old Potterton Kingfisher 11.
The old boiler is downstairs at the back of the house and the old cylinder is in the airing cupboard upstairs. The proposal is to re-site the boiler in the upstairs airing cupboard. We're in a hard water area and the pipework has a lot of scale in it.
It seems a lot to me but does anyone have any views?

To attend site, drain down heating and hot water system. Remove old floor standing boiler and strip pipe
work back as far as possible. Re site boiler to top of airing cupboard. Supply and fit 1no Ideal Logic + system
boiler, magnetic filter, new motorised valve and new controls and cylinder. Alter all pipe work to suit new
boiler position. Power flush central heating system. Run new gas pipe from meter to boiler. Wire up new
central heating system. Test and leave in good working order. Total Costs £4,236 (including VAT)

AiY Reply
I'm not a plumber. I don't work for Ideal. I work for a small company. "We" build new homes ranging in size from 3,300 to 7,300FT2. (Prices on application )

If you specify an Ideal Vogue boiler you will get a 10 year warranty subject to meeting certain criterion.
https://idealboilers.com/products/vogue-max-combi

This warranty may be extended to 12 years if you meet specified terms and conditions
https://idealboilers.com/uploads/docume ... rranty.pdf

We have used Worcester Bosch and have had no issues with them. I cannot comment on the difference between the two boilers. "Our plumber" differentiates them on price and feels they both offer very similar performance. However, I am sure that is a subjective opinion and it may be his opinion revolves around his margins.

I am confident that others have given you some great advice. I would suggest that you consider that you may be able to reduce your costs and maintain the same outcome. It may be possible to keep your new boiler in the same location as the old? I hope someone with more knowledge than me can back that up or rubbish it. I don't think you will need a water softener on your heating system if it is unvented - and again I hope someone will confirm or rubbish that. "We" are looking at the Albion cylinder by Kingspan which is unvented and albeit it's an "ugly duckling" I'm assured it's suitable, especially when inside a cupboard. I think what I'm saying is shop around and consider your options.

I've done a little work back. Please bear in mind these figures are to help - but I hope they illustrate my strategy when "judging" the offering based on price. I hasten to add price is but one function to view when purchasing and my apologies for teaching you how to suck those proverbial eggs.

1. Boiler and flu (for 3,300FT2) 1,100.00 (mounted on external wall)
2. Unvented cylinder 650.00 (let me check the quote I have and I will confirm)
3. Labour 5 days @ £200 1,000.00 (Indicative and highly subjective)
4. Bits 300.00
4. VAT @ 20% 610.00
5. Total 3,660.00

Of course the above figures are merely a suggestion. But I genuinely hope you agree that it's a sincere effort to try and develop a strategy to understand the quotation you have been given.

Finally and I really have no idea at all - none. "We" currently pay £16,400 (exclusive of vat and the bathroom suites) to fit out 3,300FT2 on a supply and fit basis. For that we get

1. Boiler
2. Underfloor heating downstairs
3. Radiators and TRV's upstairs
4. Labour to fit 4 bathroom suites and kitchen sinks
5. Cylinder
6. First fix plumbing
7. Supply only room stats (I think we have six zones downstairs - UFH)

I hope you find a solution that fits your pocket and demands and if I have talked total rubbish (with a capital "B") please dismiss me politely

All the very best
AiY

[Avantegarde]

My suspicion is you have been taken to the cleaners by some rogue "installers". I live in a 4-bedroom semi-detached house in south London and the installation of a new boiler a few years ago cost about £5,000 for parts and labour. It took two men one day to do it, with time to spare. Unless you live in a 15-bed mansion, I reckon they have overcharged you. Are they registered as "Gas Safe", previously known as CORGI? They are legally obliged to be so if they are dealing with gas appliances and not just doing water plumbing. In your shoes I'd tell them they were to do no more work and ask for half the money back, while contacting a reputable local gas installer to finish off the job. I'd also contact the local trading standards office to ask their advice.

[terminal7]

Sorry to say bruncher that the cost of circa £17k appears extortionate. I have had to have 2 combi-boilers replaced (in separate properties) in the last 2 years and the costs were circa £3k and £4k respectively. I would say neither needed much in addition to actual replacement. The boiler and parts came to about £1.5k in each case. Have you googled to see if your engineer has 'form'?

Others can advise you whether there is any case for legal redress.

T7

ps I assume you have a guarantee document regarding the boiler.

[bruncher]

The Vaillant boiler isn't a combi, also a big Megaflo tank is part of the package, and associated work changing from header tank system to closed system.

I thought the original quote was high, but assumed it included everything. House is 2,000 sq ft. 13 radiators including bathrooms and hall.

Had used the company twice before; thought they were expensive but reliable, and billing was straightforward. I have now made a claim for legal expenses from my home insurance legal cover. I am waiting to hear their assessment of my chances of recovering some money.

[Dod101]

If you had a Megaflo thank included as part of the installation, depending on the pipework required I guess you could be talking about an additional £4/5000 to the numbers people have been quoting here which are probably for a simple boiler replacement so that may make you feel a bit better. I think if you are to challenge the installer, you would need to get an independent firm in to take a look and come up with their idea of a reasonable price.

The trouble with asking for opinions on these Boards is that unless you are posting full chapter and verse it is difficult to get a reasonably meaningful opinion. I hope you have managed to get the boiler working again and wish you well in your endeavours.

Dod

[Alaric]

The trouble with asking for opinions on these Boards is that unless you are posting full chapter and verse it is difficult to get a reasonably meaningful opinion.

Replacement boilers are far more expensive than they used to be because of the imposed need to re-engineer thirty or forty year old systems. That said, there's a benchmark in the £ 3000 to £ 6000 range for a minimal change installation.

[Dod101]

The trouble with asking for opinions on these Boards is that unless you are posting full chapter and verse it is difficult to get a reasonably meaningful opinion.

Replacement boilers are far more expensive than they used to be because of the imposed need to re-engineer thirty or forty year old systems. That said, there's a benchmark in the £ 3000 to £ 6000 range for a minimal change installation.

And? I do not see that as the point and think we have established that the sort of figures you quote are in the ballpark but the OP has now disclosed that in addition to a boiler, he had a 'big Megaflo' tank fitted as well. I have one of these and they are expensive to fit or can be because the pipework needs to be reconfigured to accommodate it as they remove any need for a header tank for the water system. As I said that could easily add £4/6000 to the cost of installing a boiler, depending on the existing pipework.

Dod

[bruncher]

I have been sent receipts for the kit which equals approx £5000 - that leaves £6,500 for labour - in the original quote. (VAT included)

The additional charges of an additional £5,300 (for powerflush, fitting new radiator valves etc) is definitely a problem - sprung on us when this work must have been foreseen and the original quote should have been enough money to cover it.

Hopefully won't have to wait too much longer for the legal advice.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

I have been sent receipts for the kit which equals approx £5000 - that leaves £6,500 for labour - in the original quote. (VAT included)

The additional charges of an additional £5,300 (for powerflush, fitting new radiator valves etc) is definitely a problem - sprung on us when this work must have been foreseen and the original quote should have been enough money to cover it.

Hopefully won't have to wait too much longer for the legal advice.

Hi Bruncher,

I hope that the legal advice you get perhaps allows you to consider some form of retrospective actions. I'm going to resist commenting further on this as, regretably in the course of my work, I have been to court several times and it's not an experience I would recommend to anyone.

I have no idea if it will help or not but I am more than happy to ask my supplier to provide me with quotations for any of the equipment you have had fitted in your home.

Cheers
AiY

[bruncher]

Thank you AIY

I finally had a chat with the solicitor assigned to the case. He seems to want me to do a lot of the work e.g. he wants me to write to Vaillant to ascertain whether flushing the system is a condition for the boiler guarantee. If the installers know that a flush is required, then they have no business springing it on me as an unexpected 'extra'.

I would appreciate informed opinions on whether the flush (of radiators and pipes) is a standard practice when installing a new boiler and /or hot water tank. Given that the installer said that my old boiler (Potterton Profile) was very corroded "one of the worst I've seen" before he quoted for replacement, it seems obvious (even to me) that the system would need flushing.

[monabri]

4 bed house - new boiler (rip out the old, put in a new one - Worcester combi) - £1850 last year.

[monabri]

...including a new filter ( magnetic filter).

You could check typical prices for materials using Mr Google or Mr Screwfix. If you have a copy of the receipts, I'd also phone the supplier to confirm the prices...( just in case the receipt has been photoshopped and doctored,.

[Alaric]

4 bed house - new boiler (rip out the old, put in a new one - Worcester combi) - £1850 last year.

The costs increase when there's a need to re-engineer the system. If the boiler can be treated as a "spare part" for the house, it's going to be that much cheaper. Buying a house in 1988 which had been built around 1963, the previous owners had recently replaced the boiler with a "like for like". Twenty five years later or more, the cost of replacing that boiler was much higher because of the partial system rebuild that was necessary. Mind you fifty year old radiators, tanks, valves and pipework might well need replacing anyway.

[swill453]

I got a 25 year old vented system boiler replaced with a combi. Included:

- ATAG boiler with 10 year warranty
- new hole in brickwork for flue, old hole filled
- condensate pipe plumbed in
- hot water tank removed
- 7 new radiators, one relocated to a different wall
- about a third of the pipework replaced
- system flushed, not sure if it was a "powerflush"
- new thermostatic shower fitted
- old gas fire removed
- Hive active controller and hub
- magnetic filter

Plumber and his mate on site for best part of 5 days.

Total cost £3800, I thought it was an absolute bargain. Six months later had no issues, very happy with job.

Scott.

[Crazbe7]

I would appreciate informed opinions on whether the flush (of radiators and pipes) is a standard practice when installing a new boiler and /or hot water tank. Given that the installer said that my old boiler (Potterton Profile) was very corroded "one of the worst I've seen" before he quoted for replacement, it seems obvious (even to me) that the system would need flushing

From British Gas who also install Vaillant boilers. I would have said a power flush was required and your engineer knew that was the case when he quoted for the installation.

How do I check if I need a Powerflush?

Check for cold spots on your radiators by feeling the bottom of them. If they're cooler at the bottom than at the top, you may have a blocked radiator with sludge inside it. A Powerflush will remove the sludge and make your radiators hotter and more efficient
If your heating or hot water is slow to heat up or it's not feeling as hot as usual, your system may be blocked
If you have an old boiler, or one that hasn’t been serviced for a number of years, it may be inefficient or blocked. A qualified gas engineer will confirm this for you.
If you have old pipework or radiators, they may be rusting and causing a build-up of sludge in your heating system
If you have a new boiler, it is important that all sludge is removed from the system, or this could clog up your new boiler, making it less efficient and leading to future breakdowns.

Not a 'fan' of British Gas has had a botched installation a few years ago, but they do provide good step by step guides.

They might quote you and installation and powerflush quote over the phone if you give them the specification you've had installed. May give you a comparison.

Crazbe7

[PinkDalek]

How do I check if I need a Powerflush? ...

Source https://www.britishgas.co.uk/home-servi ... flush.html