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Estate executor heel-dragging?

including wills and probate
TedSwippet
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Estate executor heel-dragging?

#247858

Postby TedSwippet » August 29th, 2019, 4:35 pm

Does anyone here have experience on how long it might be expected to take for a firm of solicitors appointed as estate executors to complete distribution of the assets of an intestate deceased to inheritors?

I realise that every case will be different. Also, I've only just been given the full information on this, so some details will be sketchy. In brief, the deceased died in Oct 2017. He was elderly, never married, and had no children. His brother likewise, and predeceased him. Only known surviving relatives are two cousins. Because he did not make a will, they inherit.

The estate is being handled by a firm of solicitors. They handled IHT, completed probate (I think), and have received all monies from the accounts and liquidated assets, as of six months ago. This is currently sitting in a bank account earning next to no interest. The hold-up now seems to be title research. Their appointed agent took around ten months, from 25 Oct 18 until 20 Aug 19, to complete an estimated ten hours of work, only to return a report that appears inconclusive(*) and which does little but recommend more (expensive) searches for any unknown inheritors. The solicitors are not proactive and do not communicate the process well, and it is unclear whether they are adding to the delays, or maybe hiding behind their title research agent's delays, or perhaps both. The title research company was supposed to include insurance for any inheritors that turn up after distribution, but this has mysteriously never materialised. Either way, this has dragged out for nearly two years now, with ever increasing costs and with no timeline or estimates for ultimate completion.

I am still in the process of getting the information together, but while I do, does anyone have any comments as to whether nearly two years (so far, and counting) is expected, or if it seems excessive? When can title research be considered complete, if ever? Any ideas for suitable ways to move this forwards? A formal complaint to the solicitor practice seems like the most reasonable first action here. Appropriate, or too soon?

Thanks for any hints or pointers.


(*) Although they did apparently note in an email that the brother's "line should be considered baron [sic]". Probably not actual nobility, so curse of the spellchecker there, then.

staffordian
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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#247886

Postby staffordian » August 29th, 2019, 6:28 pm

My mother was one of many beneficiaries when an elderly cousin of hers died intestate. The cousin was unmarried, an only child and her parents were dead and the estate was dealt with by a local solicitor.

Whilst a distant relative supplied a few names of relatives, the solicitor employed Title Research to properly construct a family tree to determine who was entitled to inherit. This was no small undertaking, as it involved researching the family conections of both parents of the deceased, finding their siblings and all offspring of those siblings, not a cheap or easy task, but doubtless slower than strictly necessary given that they would be doing this for many cases, not devoting all their time to just the one.

It took several (from memory three or four) years for the estate to be finalised, by which time several beneficiaries, including my mother had died, meaning their estates rather than them benefited.

And even after the exhaustive research, I believe the solicitors had to take out some indemnity insurance to protect against further possible claimants appearing out of the woodwork.

So I suspect further patience might be in order...

TedSwippet
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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#247920

Postby TedSwippet » August 29th, 2019, 9:46 pm

staffordian wrote:My mother was one of many beneficiaries when an elderly cousin of hers died intestate. The cousin was unmarried, an only child and her parents were dead and the estate was dealt with by a local solicitor.

Thanks for this first-hand report of what looks to be a pretty similar case.

staffordian wrote:Whilst a distant relative supplied a few names of relatives, the solicitor employed Title Research to properly construct a family tree to determine who was entitled to inherit. This was no small undertaking, as it involved researching the family conections of both parents of the deceased, finding their siblings and all offspring of those siblings, not a cheap or easy task, but doubtless slower than strictly necessary given that they would be doing this for many cases, not devoting all their time to just the one.

Same bunch, Title Research. Unfortunately, the deceased's parents came from large families, and the family names are common, so the search is doubtless both more extensive and more difficult than might be hoped. Even so, ten months for ten hours of work seems shockingly slow. And their one single conclusion in their final report was "We have identified the Intestate had a brother ...". No surprise, because we told them that at the start. Claiming to have "identified" this adds a whole new meaning to the word!

Title Research have identified no other beneficiaries at all so far, but are now indicating another twenty hours searching needed. That might suggest nearly two years more delay, given the snail's pace at which they appear to operate. Title Research's web site boasts that they "provide fast, fixed price" research. The "fast" seems a huge stretch.

I'm unclear at present on the relationship between the solicitor and Title Research. Our contract (or what passes for one) would I guess be with the solicitor, but who to chase when things clog up again, as they surely will?

staffordian wrote:It took several (from memory three or four) years for the estate to be finalised, by which time several beneficiaries, including my mother had died, meaning their estates rather than them benefited.

Thanks for the detail. Clearly not the answer I was looking for! Some of the problem here may be down to the solicitor failing to manage expectations. Several months ago they claimed to be drawing up paperwork in readiness for an imminent distribution, yet that now seems more distant than ever. Closure appears to be permanently some months in the future.

staffordian wrote:And even after the exhaustive research, I believe the solicitors had to take out some indemnity insurance to protect against further possible claimants appearing out of the woodwork.

Yeah, we're expecting that. It's just one more known unknown lurking in a future composed of both known and unknown unknowns, and of unknown duration. These unknowns are the major frustration!

Anyway, thanks again for the reply. It is encouraging to know that we're perhaps not an outlier here. At least, not yet.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#247929

Postby Lootman » August 29th, 2019, 10:33 pm

TedSwippet wrote:
staffordian wrote:It took several (from memory three or four) years for the estate to be finalised, by which time several beneficiaries, including my mother had died, meaning their estates rather than them benefited.

Thanks for the detail. Clearly not the answer I was looking for!
Anyway, thanks again for the reply. It is encouraging to know that we're perhaps not an outlier here. At least, not yet.

Yes, my Uncle-In-Law died without a will and it was about 3/4 years as well.

He died overseas and was murdered, so that might have added to the delay . .

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#247972

Postby Charlottesquare » August 30th, 2019, 8:04 am

The insurers could be the issue- it may be more that they are the ones seeking more exhaustive searches done prior to their being willing to underwrite the policy. I would get the cousins to write asking solicitors to explain why matters are currently stalled?

I have never directly had to deal with this but my late father (a solicitor) once did regarding distribution of a trust which involved hiring search agents in the UK, Ireland and France to ensure that a son (the black sheep of the family) had produced no offspring with anyone- this took years and was still inconclusive but did at least satisfy the insurers into issuing an indemnity policy.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#247979

Postby TedSwippet » August 30th, 2019, 8:56 am

Lootman wrote:Yes, my Uncle-In-Law died without a will and it was about 3/4 years as well. He died overseas and was murdered, so that might have added to the delay . .

Ouch, not nice at all. Fortunately our circumstances are much less distressing.

Charlottesquare wrote:The insurers could be the issue- it may be more that they are the ones seeking more exhaustive searches done prior to their being willing to underwrite the policy. I would get the cousins to write asking solicitors to explain why matters are currently stalled?

I have never directly had to deal with this but my late father (a solicitor) once did regarding distribution of a trust which involved hiring search agents in the UK, Ireland and France to ensure that a son (the black sheep of the family) had produced no offspring with anyone- this took years and was still inconclusive but did at least satisfy the insurers into issuing an indemnity policy.

Thanks. I've now been appointed the 'point person' here for the cousins, so I guess I'll be the one writing!

It looks like the stall is down to incomplete searches, so that may not be the mystery part. Title Research's notion of 'fixed price' seems to be that they will do some indeterminate portion of a project of unknown scope and size for a fixed price, and then you get to pay another fixed price for the next segment, until they consider it done. An open ended cost composed of small fixed price segments. I can see how it could be impossible to judge the time required for a title search without actually searching, so perhaps fixing a price is infeasible. However, claiming 'fixed price' appears misleading given this way of running things.

The other -- and to my mind main -- problem here is the delay. Transfer Research claim to use in-house databases for their search, so it's unclear why a delay of ten months would occur. If they could guarantee completing the next chunk of work in their (piecemeal!) search inside a month say, and if they don't persist in searching things we've already told them (via the solicitor -- did they pass on this information?), I would feel a lot more comfortable.

You're right here that the aim is to get the indemnity policy. I think my next step is to tackle Title Research directly on the issues above, and just cc'ing the solicitor to keep them in the loop. The solicitor might have appointed Title Research, but ultimately we are the ones paying for their services. In parallel, I'd like the solicitor to outline all the remaining steps to closure here, along with some estimates of timing, costs, and contingencies. Basic project management, in other words.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#248125

Postby staffordian » August 30th, 2019, 5:02 pm

Just to pick up on a minor point, whilst Title Research (TR) might have their own databases, I very much doubt they would have direct access to birth marriage and death registers for England and Wales. (Older Scottish ones are available to view online for a fee).

It is possible to search indexes for England and Wales but if this reveals possible "hits" then TR would have to apply either direct to the relevent local authority or the General Register Office and buy a copy of the certificate to get details of the person concerned to confirm if it's the right person.

This will, of course involve both a fee and a delay...

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#248391

Postby Avantegarde » August 31st, 2019, 10:00 pm

My own experience of winding up my father's estate (with the very slow "help" of a High Street solicitor) is that some solicitors claim to know how to do this stuff, but in reality do not. Yes, I know, shocking, but true. In your shoes I would have a firm but polite face-to-face chat with them and get them to come clean with a simple question: how long will this business take? If the answer is "how long is a bit of string" I'd be inclined to give them a firm deadline ie six more months or even relieve them of their role as executors (if possible). A bit aggressive? Yes. But it is intolerable for lawyers and their agents to drag their feet and deprive beneficiaries of their money for possibly years.
By the way, who appointed the solicitors as executors? As there was no Will someone must have taken that decision. Presumably the same person/people can remove them.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#446131

Postby TedSwippet » September 28th, 2021, 11:06 pm

Resurrecting this thread ...

It is now two years on from my initial post, and the solicitors have still not yet wound up and distributed the estate. A considerable sum of money remains dormant in their accounts. The process seems to be mired in an almost interminable quagmire of title research. At each step, the firm delivers a family tree that is slightly wider and deeper than the previous step, an invoice for work so far, and a determination that "further research" is required. Rinse and repeat. This has now been going on for a total of four years.

With some justification, the solicitor blames the title research company. With somewhat less justification, Title Research blames the government records offices for being slow. And of course all of them will blame the pandemic. Allowing for all of this though, my own feeling is that this really should have been sorted out by now. Unfortunately, the parties involved are remote, so I cannot readily go and bother them in person. As mentioned by Charlottesquare, the insurance is the sticking point; it cannot be issued until Title Research are happy that everything has been fully researched.

Given these delays, does anyone feel it would be unreasonable of me to begin the formal complaints process with this firm of solicitors? They will surely (and again, with some justification) point the finger at Title Research, but my contention is that our contract is with the solicitor, and it is the solicitor who should then manage the work of the title research company, something that doesn't seem to be happening well.

Any hints on the best approach here? For example, things to focus on, or not focus on, in any formal complaint? Useful phrases or technical terms? Method of delivery (email, snail mail, signed for, ...)? I presume I can only formally complain to the solicitor, even though they may not be the main culprits? My aim with any complaint is not so much to get compensation as it is to light a fire under the process so that it gets completed without further undue delay.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#446150

Postby Dod101 » September 29th, 2021, 2:01 am

Jumping in from the outside, the problem is getting the insurance indemnity. What do the insurers really need? That seems to me to be'cutting to the quick'. They need assurance that everything has been done to find any 'dormant' relatives, I assume. What does that mean? When will they be satisfied?

They may of course not speak to you as they have no relationship in a contractual sense with you. Is there no other body than Title Research to conduct this work? I am fairly sure that if you begin a formal complaints procedure with the solicitors that will get you nowhere. It could be that they ought to be more proactive but that is not surely grounds for a successful complaint.

It seems a ridiculously long time for the research to be going on. Are there no other insurers that they can approach? How many are being asked to quote for the indemnity? There may well be only a few prepared to do this anyway. What about the premium? Would they provide the indemnity for more money? How much more? Solicitors in my experience are not very good at asking these sorts of questions. They have their contacts and that is that. It seems to me that that may be a more productive source of a conclusive end to this matter. Certainly take matters into your hands but try to work towards a successful conclusion. Having a row with the solicitors will probably not do that.

Dod

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#446350

Postby TedSwippet » September 29th, 2021, 5:05 pm

Dod101 wrote:Jumping in from the outside, the problem is getting the insurance indemnity. What do the insurers really need? That seems to me to be'cutting to the quick'. They need assurance that everything has been done to find any 'dormant' relatives, I assume. What does that mean? When will they be satisfied? ... It seems to me that that may be a more productive source of a conclusive end to this matter. Certainly take matters into your hands but try to work towards a successful conclusion. Having a row with the solicitors will probably not do that.

Thanks for the note. You're exactly right on the insurance being the hindrance here.

The problem I have with taking matters into my own hands, is that I don't have anything close to the knowledge necessary for the task. I'm not particularly close to the process, either physically or otherwise -- I'm not even a beneficiary -- and I lack the skills and, if I'm honest, the will and intestinal fortitude to get more involved than I already am. There are of course other rival title research companies, but it's easy to imagine that handing it over to another will slow rather than speed things, at this point.

My plan for any complaint was certainly not to row with the solicitors ("get a move on, you lazy idiots!"), at least not initially(!), but rather to present it as a "sorry it had to come to this" type of approach, and ideally something that will spur them to complain in turn about slowness to Title Research. And the reason I'm considering this is because I think I've come to the end of what I can accomplish with a less confrontational approach.

This particular family tree is unfortunately rather wide in places -- several additional cousins materialised since my first post two years ago -- but even so, four years of dithering seems like it should be enough time to complete this process. It is hard to believe that Title Research have given it sufficient attention over this period.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#446799

Postby Clitheroekid » October 1st, 2021, 12:00 am

The general strategy for solicitors in cases like this is to carry on doing research and clocking up chargeable hours until the estate is finally exhausted, at which point they can close their file! ;)

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#446806

Postby Mike4 » October 1st, 2021, 12:15 am

TedSwippet wrote:At each step, the firm delivers a family tree that is slightly wider and deeper than the previous step, an invoice for work so far, and a determination that "further research" is required. Rinse and repeat. This has now been going on for a total of four years.


"Further research" will always 'required', I'd suggest. I can't imagine any firm of solicitors ever declaring their investigations are complete, definitive and 100% reliable.

I'd say a view needs to be taken and a line drawn under this affair. I'm not sure how but this would be the position I'd take up, if I were you.

IANAL.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#447201

Postby stewamax » October 2nd, 2021, 11:28 am

Clitheroekid wrote:The general strategy for solicitors in cases like this is to carry on doing research and clocking up chargeable hours until the estate is finally exhausted, at which point they can close their file! ;)

OP's surname is Jarndyce perhaps?
But these issues can unfortunately drag on (I have the scars...) and OP has my sympathy. With hindsight it might have been better for OP to commission Title Research directly and give the result to the solicitor. At least you could chase the laggards directly.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#450256

Postby TedSwippet » October 15th, 2021, 7:53 am

For anyone still interested ... while formulating the complaint against the solicitor, three interesting facts have come to light.

Firstly, it was just short of a year after death before they even engaged Title Research for the first time. This was before my involvement, and I don't know what else went on in this year that might be the cause, but it seems worth raising with them.

Secondly, and more damningly, at the start of this year they delivered an interim report from Title Research and asked for confirmation for Title Research to start the next package of work. I gave that the same day. However, the subsequent report from Title Research indicates that they (Title Research) did not receive instructions to proceed until some eight months later than the date I confirmed with the solicitor. And coincidentally or otherwise, the date to proceed given in the report is just a few days after I emailed the solicitors asking for an update. So eight months of inactivity caused by solicitor inaction. Most charitably, perhaps the solicitor mislaid my instruction to continue, but even then, after a couple of weeks you would expect them to re-ask, rather than simply let things drift. It is not my job to call them every two weeks to ask them if they have done theirs.

And thirdly, we may well be at the end of a third eight-month period of inactivity. The most recent email from the solicitor is from a new (to me) individual, and says that the person who was dealing with this account left "some months ago", prefixed by "as you may have been made aware," which I most certainly had not. So emails to them over who knows how long have simply been ignored; there was no undeliverable 'bounce' or any other indication that contacts were going nowhere.

All of which suggests that of the four years, perhaps nearly two and a half of them were time when Title Research were either not involved or paused by the solicitor.

Complaint raised against the solicitor, and sent. Now I get to find out if their complaints handling process is any more efficient than their normal case-handling process.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#450262

Postby Dod101 » October 15th, 2021, 8:33 am

I would also try to remove them from the case. Presumably you have in mind what you would like from your complaint? Have you articulated anything to them? Such as a refund of fees paid to date.

By coincidence I have recently had to dig out papers of 20 years ago dealing with my first wife's estate. At that time, I had cause to complain and eventually got a full refund of one set of fees but I had to be clear on what I wanted and persistent.

Good luck.

Dod

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#450323

Postby TedSwippet » October 15th, 2021, 11:44 am

Dod101 wrote:I would also try to remove them from the case. Presumably you have in mind what you would like from your complaint? Have you articulated anything to them? Such as a refund of fees paid to date.

Thanks. I'm certainly thinking along those lines, but for now I've no idea where else to place the work. I'm physically quite distant from what's going on. Bringing it local would mean I'd have an office I could visit in person to check up on things, but then it's also possible that moving it entirely at this point could slow rather than speed things. I'll see what receiving a formal complaint flushes out.

My suggested recompense is based on missed investment gains over periods identified as delays created by one or both of these organisations. By my reckoning this could be a fair bit more than their fees! Early days just yet though, I think; that seems like fine tuning for a later date.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#450334

Postby scrumpyjack » October 15th, 2021, 12:47 pm

I don't think there is any chance of getting compensation for notional missed investment gains.

The risk with generating a dispute with them is that they simply spend more chargeable hours on the case, all of which will be billed to the estate, and you end up in a far worse position.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#450349

Postby monabri » October 15th, 2021, 1:29 pm

The solicitors held on to the funds for 9 months before my wife received a small inheritance from her aunt.

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Re: Estate executor heel-dragging?

#450368

Postby TedSwippet » October 15th, 2021, 2:35 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:I don't think there is any chance of getting compensation for notional missed investment gains.

The risk with generating a dispute with them is that they simply spend more chargeable hours on the case, all of which will be billed to the estate, and you end up in a far worse position.

As I understand it, we have a fixed-price contract with them for this work. I'm aware of the risk, though.

The bottom line is that they appear to have been fairly incompetent in ways that have created delays for all concerned. For example, many beneficiaries will have been unable to use a Deed of Variation (there is a two-years-after-death limitation on that) because they won't even have known that they were beneficiaries before that window had closed. That could cost them dear if their own IHT situation is borderline. So to my mind there has to be some compensation due somewhere along the line. A solicitor charging an estate extra to clean up a mess the solicitor themselves created seems doubly unreasonable.

We'll see how they respond -- or perhaps more accurately, if they respond! -- to the complaint, I guess. My patience with them is exhausted.


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