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Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

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onthemove
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Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280150

Postby onthemove » January 26th, 2020, 7:16 pm

I've already posted on the computers board, and the suggestion was made to post here about the legal aspect...

Summary...

2019 - June : Bought an HP Spectre x360 (From the HP store on HP's website)

Within a few weeks, had noticed that when under load, the computer was not performing well. After some investigation realised the CPU frequency was running down to at times (when under load and performance is needed) 0.79GHz, rather than maintaining the 2.2GHz base frequency that it was sold as having.

After some informal attempts at resolving via the public HP forums, an HP representative opened a formal case with HP support for me in mid September,...

2019 - Sep : Official Support case opened (this is approx 3 months after purchase; well within 6 months).

Between then and Christmas, multiple phone calls (last time I checked somewhere in the region of 17), HP support logged on remotely several times, and a couple of new BIOS versions were all allegedly developed to attempt to resolve this issue. All without success.

2020 - Jan : Final straw, I said enough is enough, and HP agrees to send the unit for repair.

Unit returns from repair with the problem still present.

I then told HP Customer Relations that I now wanted a replacement (or refund) under the consumer rights act, but the HP representative tells me I'm not entitled to such resolutions because it is now outside the 6 months window, even though that is due to THEIR repeated failure to fix the problem within this time.

He insists the only resolution they will offer is to send the unit for repair AGAIN.

I responded by email, clearly stating that this was under protest, that I didn't want to waste time on another repair, and that I was agreeing to do so only on the basis that he told me I had no rights to any other remedy, and that this was the only thing they were prepared to offer.

Well, it's now been away, and come back again for that second repair attempt, and unsurprisingly the fault is still there... I've videoed it and put it on youtube if anyone's interested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-ijoSYniTU - though it probably isn't relevant to the question.

I haven't yet contacted HP since I received it back this time, but before I do, I'd just thought I'd checkout the legal position.

-o- I mean, in particular, is HP right that because they took so long to not fix it that it went beyond 6 months, that this means I now no longer have the rights I would have had within the first 6 months? So I can't now insist on a full refund due to it still not being fixed, even though the problem was reported to them well within 6 months of purchase?

I did have a quick browse around re. consumer rights, but it seems that you have to pay (iirc) £115 just to even open legal proceedings, and if they contest the case, then it can go to court and you'll need to make a physical appearance (with the travel costs and time off work to get there), and if the judgement goes against you, you could then have to pay their costs as well!

To be honest, it doesn't really feel like these rights are worth the paper they're written on, if that's the risks and hassle you have to run to enforce them if the company just plays hardball.

How clear cut are the rights?

I mean, do I still have any rights from it being reported within 6 months?

If I knew up front that the unit would throttle down to well below the base frequency like this, I simply wouldn't have bought it.

Quite literally, my existing Surface Pro 4 can comfortably sustain 3.2GHz on a dual core CPU at 100% CPU load .... so the HP Spectre sustaining 1GHz with 6 cores, doesn't come out any faster - in fact it's a tiny bit slower at that speed! I certainly wouldn't have paid nearly £1700 if I'd known that!

Thanks.

(*) May or may not be relevant - the first repair they replaced the motherboard and a couple of fans; second repair it's a little ambiguous - one source (online) indicates they changed the CPU, the other (the paper in the box with it) that they swapped the motherboard again. So they did attempt something.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280155

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » January 26th, 2020, 7:41 pm

You could take them to the County Court and ask a judge to make a decision about the 6 months rule.

Google "case law" on the subject to see if there's any cases which have already laid down more defined interpretations of the act. May well be worth reading the act?

I would note that you are being mislead by HP. The law requires that the goods purchased must remain clear of fault for a minimum of 6 months, after which it is up to you to prove the fault exists. Clearly there is already sufficient evidence to demonstrate that HP believed the unit to be faulty and this was within the 6 month period.

I'd drop them a little letter confirming that within seven days they should replace with new or refund in full, after which you will issue them with a County Court Summons. I would also note that in such a letter you should inform them that you will also seek to recover all reasonable costs associated with such action.

Finally ... don't get mad! Get even ;)

AiYn'U

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280185

Postby AF62 » January 26th, 2020, 10:44 pm

If you paid with a credit card then simply do a Section 75 claim (if this was a retail sale and not a business purchase).

I have used it a number of times with recalcitrant retailers (the last was John Lewis and claiming against a John Lewis credit card!) and I doubt you will have any issue getting a refund at no cost to you.

onthemove
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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280188

Postby onthemove » January 26th, 2020, 11:32 pm

AF62 wrote:If you paid with a credit card then simply do a Section 75 claim (if this was a retail sale and not a business purchase).

I have used it a number of times with recalcitrant retailers (the last was John Lewis and claiming against a John Lewis credit card!) and I doubt you will have any issue getting a refund at no cost to you.


Sadly I paid with a debit card.

I thought HP were a trustable company, and also them being American, I was under the impression that large US companies bent over backwards to keep consumers happy... I mean, I see reviews all the time from (US) people practically saying they just don't like something and acting as though it's a given that they'll be able to just take it back, even if it isn't faulty,.. and largely, I see no complaints from anyone in the US being unable to. And I thought that was just the American retail culture of the customer is always right (rather than US regulations).

With hindsight, that was admittedly rather naïve on my part.

Speaking of John Lewis, my experience with them has been the opposite. I've had a number of Surface Pro variants before all bought from them, and at least twice John Lewis has issued a full refund / credit note when they went faulty within their 2 yrs warranty period. I mean, I did provide clear evidence and their technical people were really on the ball and understood it. I was very impressed with them.

With HP ... I've got the evidence again here ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-ijoSYniTU ... OK, I've not yet contacted them again since receiving the unit back this weekend (partly because they aren't open weekends), and I'll point them to that video, but there's nothing in that video that I haven't evidenced before - basically, put it under load, and it (usually) slows to a crawl - crucially below the advertised 'base' speed (and by a large margin).

Basically similar standard of evidence (screenshots / videos) to what I presented to John Lewis with the faults in the Surface Pro's, and John Lewis just straight away sorted refunds / credit notes, no hassle.

(Sheepishly) I chose HP in part because I was starting to have doubts about how viable John Lewis were with the stories about them scrapping their staff bonus because of poor performance , etc ... I mean John Lewis have been great to me with the Surface Pros, but if they get into difficulty and become yet another high street casualty, their 2/3 yr warranties wouldn't then be worth anything. And buying from HP direct came out cheaper as well.

Though mea culpa, I'm paying for that penny pinching now :(

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280216

Postby Avantegarde » January 27th, 2020, 8:39 am

If you wish to sue them, I think you could use the small claims online system.
As the name suggest, it is the online, DIY, version of "going to the county court".
The rules change from time to time but here is the link: https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome.
Here is a government explanation of the system: https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money
This the guide from Which? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights ... aims-court

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280623

Postby Infrasonic » January 28th, 2020, 3:51 pm

onthemove wrote:
AF62 wrote:If you paid with a credit card then simply do a Section 75 claim (if this was a retail sale and not a business purchase).

I have used it a number of times with recalcitrant retailers (the last was John Lewis and claiming against a John Lewis credit card!) and I doubt you will have any issue getting a refund at no cost to you.


Sadly I paid with a debit card.
(


You can still (possibly) get financial recompense even if you paid via Debit Card...https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopp ... hargeback/

Legal action.
If you have a strong case (I think you do) then the written threat of legal action should hopefully be enough to get HP to move, especially if you give them the option of replacing with the latest gen 5 machine (with the updated heat shield and possibly updated thermals firmware).

I've threatened legal action quite a few times (with a strong case) and have yet to actually follow through with SCC or CC proceedings.
A compromise of some sort has always been achieved, from a full refund/replacement to a significant freebie as compensation for poor service.

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280708

Postby tacpot12 » January 28th, 2020, 8:25 pm

I think you could argue your case strongly in court - you were being reasonable in allow HP to try a range of resolutions, but you should stress that throughout that time you were having to use a machine with a significant fault. It was not of an acceptable quality, and HP accepted this around September 2019, and failed to remedy the situation.

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280745

Postby stevensfo » January 29th, 2020, 7:30 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:You could take them to the County Court and ask a judge to make a decision about the 6 months rule.

Google "case law" on the subject to see if there's any cases which have already laid down more defined interpretations of the act. May well be worth reading the act?

I would note that you are being mislead by HP. The law requires that the goods purchased must remain clear of fault for a minimum of 6 months, after which it is up to you to prove the fault exists. Clearly there is already sufficient evidence to demonstrate that HP believed the unit to be faulty and this was within the 6 month period.

I'd drop them a little letter confirming that within seven days they should replace with new or refund in full, after which you will issue them with a County Court Summons. I would also note that in such a letter you should inform them that you will also seek to recover all reasonable costs associated with such action.

Finally ... don't get mad! Get even ;)

AiYn'U


Just a reminder to send the letter registered/recorded or whatever the PO uses these days so they cannot possibly say that they didn't receive it.

Another idea that someone told me many years ago is to mention the considerable toll on your health that their behaviour has caused, higher B.P., stress, etc etc. Apparently, the merest hint of serious health conditions being involved is enough to make them agree to anything.

Including the blinding headaches caused by banging your head against the wall. :-)

Steve

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280771

Postby Infrasonic » January 29th, 2020, 9:06 am

Another point...

Find examples on the web forums where HP have given full refunds and list those links and the reasons/time period in your written complaint to them as a way of demonstrating that they do in fact refund when there are known issues. I found an HP laptop full refund one yesterday looking for something else (I've just had a look through my browsing history but can't find the link now, the article was via Google News).

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#280917

Postby jackdaww » January 29th, 2020, 4:06 pm

i had a similar problem with panasonic.

long story short , avoid dealing with manufacturers !

i have never had any problem using amazon.

another precaution , i subscribe to which? and their legal support service.

they will tell you where you stand and advise yoy through the process.

:)

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Re: Consumer Rights re. Laptop bought from HP directly

#281026

Postby onthemove » January 30th, 2020, 12:04 am

Thanks everyone for the responses.

An update...

HP have responded with an offer of a replacement unit (though without any admission of liability, etc, etc), but the specification offered falls extremely far below what I would consider an acceptable replacement (1920x1080 screen instead of 4K, 512GB SSD instead of 1TB), and with only a 12month warranty, not the 3yr that came with the unit I purchased. There's absolutely no way I could accept that as replacement. I certainly would never have bought such a unit, and doubly so not for the price I paid!

I've just sent a response flatly rejecting their offer.

I've checked the HP website and found the nearest equivalent models that have the same spec, etc, and I think there is little reasonable doubt that they should be considered the nearest equivalent; I say 'they' because there are two very similar models, but one is on clearance, so presumably just part of the same evolution - they are almost identical spec, and almost identical to my existing unit as well.

So I've offered them two proposed options...

Option 1. I would accept either of those two models as replacement, provided that (1) they can assure me that it will be able to sustain the advertised base frequency under load, with the keyboard pushed back (i.e. that it won't have the same issue as the current unit), and (2) that they transfer over the remainder of the original 3yr warranty still outstanding over to the new unit.

or

Option 2. If they reject option 1, that I then wish to request a full refund under the consumer rights act 2015, as the fault was reported within 6 months, they have had multiple attempts to fix it, and they have been unsuccessful.

If they accept this, then I've asked them to provide details on the process for return and full refund. And I guess that's that then. I then have to start from scratch buying an alternative. But at least I can then move forwards and put this saga behind me.

In anticipation / to expedite things, I have also noted in option 2 that I have already raised the subject of my rights under the consumer rights act with them in relation to this before, and therefore to try and expedite things, asked that if they reject both option 1 and option 2 (my request for a full refund under the consumer rights act) that could they therefore indicate on what grounds they are rejecting my request for a full refund.

And I've indicated that I'm asking their reason for rejecting a full refund, so that I can then seek more formal advice from the Citizens Advice Consumer Service https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consu ... standards/ which, from what I can tell, seems to be the 'official' place to go to for advice on such consumer queries related to the consumer rights act, etc.

And they also seem to be the means that Trading Standards can be informed if a retailer "tried to stop you using your legal rights", if that's what the Citizens Advice consumer service agrees has happened.

Then again, if HP state their reasons and I relay them to the CA consumer service, they might agree with them. In which case, at least I'll know where I stand, and will just have to live with the laptop not being quite what I thought I was buying (*)

At least it feels like plan.

We'll see how it goes.

Thanks.

(One of the things I'd planned to do on the new computer was try and create videos for youtube - admittedly I had something other than HP product reviews in mind, but hey, practice is practise, and I think my video creating skills could do with a little (understatement) practice from my first attempt linked above!)


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