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Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

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NeilW
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Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#284772

Postby NeilW » February 16th, 2020, 5:54 pm

I have an Apple laptop that has developed a faulty battery after 290 cycles - when they are supposed to last 1000.

When it does this a 'Service Battery' message pops up and the internal system report (which describes the battery in detail) has all the details that show that the battery was outside its described standard. If I'd bought this laptop from Apple, they would swap that battery on that basis. But to my regret I'd bought this one retail.

So I contacted the retailer - John Lewis in this case - and immediately got fobbed off with the 'out of warranty' line. After we'd got past that and onto the Consumer Right Act 2015, I spent an hour debating the finer points with them where they point blank refused to accept the report from the laptop and insisted I obtain an Apple report from an Apple store. (Since it's more than six months old, we're into the prove the fault was there at the time stage. Fairly easy I thought given that it is sealed in an aluminium box powered by a MagSafe induction charger - all supplied by the retailer. Apparently not - they appear to want to rule out an Act of God).

Therefore I have spent today on a 72 mile several hour round trip for a guy in a blue shirt to plug a wire into the laptop and produce a printout saying 'yeah the battery is a dodgy one. It needs changing. Nothing to do with you'.

This step was completely unnecessary given how far out of spec the battery has been (it's a lightly used laptop). The question now is how much of the cost of this trip can I recover from John Lewis (and/or the credit card company) - in addition to getting the laptop fixed. Is there a rate at which you can charge mileage?

And why, in the age of the Internet, do retailers still think they can push the 'it's out of warranty so the repair will be chargeable" line as almost the first thing they say?

Neil

didds
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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#284891

Postby didds » February 17th, 2020, 10:49 am

NeilW wrote:

And why, in the age of the Internet, do retailers still think they can push the 'it's out of warranty so the repair will be chargeable" line as almost the first thing they say?

Neil



presumably because a high percentage of compalinants accept that (albeit disgruntled) as they know no different and accept it at face value.

didds

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#284913

Postby GoSeigen » February 17th, 2020, 11:48 am

NeilW wrote:Therefore I have spent today on a 72 mile several hour round trip for a guy in a blue shirt to plug a wire into the laptop and produce a printout saying 'yeah the battery is a dodgy one. It needs changing. Nothing to do with you'.

This step was completely unnecessary given how far out of spec the battery has been (it's a lightly used laptop). The question now is how much of the cost of this trip can I recover from John Lewis (and/or the credit card company) - in addition to getting the laptop fixed. Is there a rate at which you can charge mileage?

And why, in the age of the Internet, do retailers still think they can push the 'it's out of warranty so the repair will be chargeable" line as almost the first thing they say?

Neil


Ah John Lewis is not what it used to be.

You probably didn't agree this with them in advance but I should think that since they doubted you and required you to do the travel and it turned out you were right and the travel was unnecessary and could only have benefited John Lewis then they should fully reimburse your costs. I wouldn't know how to calculate it but presumably the same figures as HMRC accept would be deemed reasonable by any court. I'd certainly insist on their paying the travel costs even if they don't want to.


GS

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#285014

Postby Clitheroekid » February 17th, 2020, 7:20 pm

Yes, in simple legal terms you probably would be entitled to recover the travel expenses as a reasonable expense incurred in establishing evidence.

But I understand the normal rate approved by HMRC is 45p a mile, which would only amount to £32.40.

Unfortunately, it's likely that they'll now agree to replace the battery but not pay your mileage, in which case you're stuck. In theory you could sue them for £32.90, but in practice life's too short.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#285070

Postby UncleEbenezer » February 18th, 2020, 12:09 am

Clitheroekid wrote:Yes, in simple legal terms you probably would be entitled to recover the travel expenses as a reasonable expense incurred in establishing evidence.


Isn't there a legal clause in county court law that you can assert a fact and call on the other side to admit/agree it "under Section XYZ", on the basis that if they don't, you can claim the cost of establishing it in evidence regardless of the outcome of the overall case?

Might some such thing extend to this case? At least if he'd given notice of his intention to recover costs?

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#285113

Postby Bminusrob » February 18th, 2020, 9:24 am

Goodness me. As GoSeigen said, "John Lewis is not what it used to be". My wife had a similarly poor experience from JL in respect to a mobile phone with a battery problem. The phone battery started losing charge such that it would only last about six hours, even with quite light usage at about three or four months old. JL's only answer was to send the phone back to the manufacturer. This took about two months, during which time, my wife had to use an ancient mobile with many newer features missing. JL refused point blank to chase the manufacturer.

In these days of cheap Internet shopping, what is the point of the high street if they won't provide decent customer service?

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#285734

Postby AF62 » February 20th, 2020, 7:03 pm

Bminusrob wrote:Goodness me. As GoSeigen said, "John Lewis is not what it used to be". My wife had a similarly poor experience from JL in respect to a mobile phone with a battery problem. The phone battery started losing charge such that it would only last about six hours, even with quite light usage at about three or four months old. JL's only answer was to send the phone back to the manufacturer. This took about two months, during which time, my wife had to use an ancient mobile with many newer features missing. JL refused point blank to chase the manufacturer.


Funnily enough I had an almost identical situation with John Lewis before Christmas - a faulty mobile phone which they wanted to send off to the manufacturer and would take some time to resolve.

I refused and invoked a section 75 claim with the credit card company, which was a... John Lewis Credit Card*!

After a couple of letters back and forth (whilst I still was able to use the phone), they gave me a full credit and just asked me to throw the £200 phone away.

My policy with retailers these days is - I ask nicely once, and then invoke s75. I had one exception to that rule, which was Dixons/Currys/PC World, when I wouldn't even bother asking once as I knew it would be a waste of time. John Lewis looks like it is now on that list.

*Except the John Lewis Credit Card is run by HSBC, who are a bit dim and didn't know what a section 75 claim was, so paid £50 in compensation when I complained about their poor service.

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#288619

Postby NeilW » March 5th, 2020, 7:35 am

The saga continues:

I sent in the Genius Bar report to John Lewis

Please find attached the Genius Bar report from Apple as requested.

Given the fault has been shown and the report was obtained under
protest, I will be looking to recover the costs of obtaining the
report under the terms of the Consumer Right Act 2015. This amounts to
£33.60


to which I received this missive

For a claim under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 to be valid, there would have to be a breach on the conditions that are listed under this act. Upon reviewing your case, I can see that the reason for this claim is due to the fact that your MacBook was not as described and had not lasted a duration that meets your expectations.

Whilst we try to offer the highest quality of products, we cannot promise that the item will not develop a fault during its use, which is why we offer a guarantee to ensure that the item lasts a reasonable amount of time. As your MacBook has exceeded the 3 year guarantee period we offer without developing a fault, we would consider this particular item to have lasted a considerable amount of time.

The report that you have provided, does not state that the fault with the battery is inherent since the point of sale and it does confirm that this can be repaired. As this is a manufacturing fault that has occurred as a result of normal usage and it can be repaired, this therefore means that the conditions under the Consumer Rights Act have not been breached, hence an invalid claim which is why we are unable to take further action in regards to this matter.


I then opened a resolver case with John Lewis (and the Credit Card company MBNA Limited under Section 75), detailing the claim so far, the meat of which was

...
This laptop is not of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or as described. To support this I rely upon the statements made by Apple at the time about about the laptop battery - that "Your battery is designed to retain up to 80% of its original capacity at 1000 complete charge cycles.", and the statement of consumer law from Apple "Under consumer laws in the UK, consumers are entitled to a free of charge repair or replacement, discount or refund by the seller, of defective goods or goods which do not conform with the contract of sale. For goods purchased in England or Wales, these rights expire six years from delivery of the goods". These statements, amongst others made by Apple, are relevant circumstances to the contract of sale by virtue of Section 9(5) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015

At no point in any of the Apple statements do they restrict the time under which their quality claim is made. It is always 80% of the battery design capacity over 1000 cycles. The lifespan of the battery is the number of cycles it has done, not the amount of time that has elapsed. Hence why Apple Genius bar reported that the battery was faulty, not consumed. If there was any such express or implied time limit on the Apple product by Apple themselves they would have marked the battery consumed. They did not.

A laptop holding 69% charge at 292 cycles would be seen as unsatisfactory against the manufacturer durability claim of 80% at 1000 cycles by any reasonable person. It is barely a quarter of the quoted lifespan.

The statements made in the email of the 27th are incorrect and in breach of the terms of the contract of sale, as well as directly contradicting the evidence of fault supplied by the Apple Genius Bar in the expert report. ...


I then requested damages for breach of contract since they had refused to repair.

The latest reply is as follows

Firstly, I must advise we would not be looking to cover the cost of a battery replacement service and your associated expenses through Apple.  This is as we do not cover consequential losses and due to the issue we can arrange for your MacBook to be collected and sent to our Apple-authorised repair centre.  On sending your MacBook to our service centre, the battery will be evaluated by an Apple-authorised engineer.  At this time we will evaluate a claim under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.  Please note the collection service will be free of charge; however, you may be quoted for the repair service if the battery is not faulty.


Which as far as I can tell is a demand that the report they requested I obtain be ignored and they should get to decide if the laptop is faulty or not. And then they might hold the laptop hostage.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this. Clearly they still don't accept liability, and although I'm happy for them to replace the battery it needs to be as a Section 23(2) repair not yet another fault investigation. They asked for an independent expert report proving fault, and now seem to want to forget they asked for that (and actually agreed to cover my travel costs to get it in the initial phone call) and decide themselves.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#288804

Postby melonfool » March 5th, 2020, 11:11 pm

Maybe I've missed it but you don't actually say how old it is?

I had a faulty Nokia (fault within 6m and acknowledged as a known issue) and I complained to the retailer (Argos) and then the manufacturer (Nokia) - both wanted to send it to Hungary for repair.

I took a S75 claim and Amex said that as Argos had no record of my complaint, it failed. (It's not my fault they can't look after paperwork is it!)

I honestly could not be bothered to argue with any of them any more, so I sent it to Hungary for repair myself (which Nokia did free, with a free courier and despite Argos saying it would take a month it was back within a week) but meanwhile I had to buy a new phone.

This doesn't help you - have you asked Apple how much a repair would be?

I might at least try and find out.

Mel

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#288821

Postby GoSeigen » March 6th, 2020, 6:41 am

NeilW wrote:The saga continues:

I sent in the Genius Bar report to John Lewis


You didn't initially disclose that the laptop is over three years old!

Why on earth did you not insist on a new battery in the Apple Store if they agreed it was faulty? Apple are usually extremely accommodating with these things. Was it just to prolong your quixotic fight with John Lewis?

Take it back to Apple as recommended by Melonfool and have them change the battery. Then move on with life.


GS

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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#288858

Postby dspp » March 6th, 2020, 10:19 am

GoSeigen wrote:
NeilW wrote:The saga continues:

I sent in the Genius Bar report to John Lewis


You didn't initially disclose that the laptop is over three years old! ...


GS


This is a good example of why John Lewis are suffering. Who would want to be responsible for selling anything to UK consumers. Not me !

regards, dspp

NeilW
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Re: Consumer Rights Act - recovery of travel costs

#288867

Postby NeilW » March 6th, 2020, 10:41 am

GoSeigen wrote:Why on earth did you not insist on a new battery in the Apple Store if they agreed it was faulty? Apple are usually extremely accommodating with these things. Was it just to prolong your quixotic fight with John Lewis?


Because Apple want £129 to change the battery of course. They won't do it themselves because it is the retailers responsibility.

Do you not see the problem here?

If this had been bought directly from Apple they would have swapped it - because they said they would have. But then won't do that when it is bought through a reseller - unless the reseller pays for it.

Which is why you never should buy Apple gear from anybody other than Apple. The resellers don't want to stand behind the durability claims from Apple.


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