Legal Interpretation of the new covid laws.

[redsturgeon]

What do the coronavirus regulations actually mean in law.

The contentious parts regarding over zealous policing seem to surround the question of what is and is not legally permitted in term of leaving my abode.

IANAL so I'd value any legal clarification on the law here. I have several questions.

1. What is essential business? If my bike has a puncture can I take it to the local bike shop? Can I go to B&Q to buy supplies for DIY projects? Can I drive to pick up an item bought on eBay assuming I comply with reasonable social distancing measures? Can I buy an easter egg?

2. The way I read the regulations, going out for exercise is OK. Boris said once a day, Gove said an hour walking, 30 minutes running or something in between for cycling. AFAIK none of these suggestions are anything more than that and I can legally go out as many times as I like for as long as I like.
Also if I want to practise golf in the local park or go kayaking all day then legally that's OK too. Am I right?

3. What is the legal situation if I am stopped by the police and they want to know where I am going? Do I have to tell them or does my right to remain silent still apply?

4. As far a I can tell there is nothing in the regulations to stop me getting in my car or on my motorbike and having a bimble around the country. Am I right?

John

[didds]

Good questions and not far from what has been buzzing aroud my head the past week.

I'd not realsied Gove has come up with this "1 hour" stuff though I have seen a couple of people reference it on social media . He clearly has no comprehencion of what exercise means for some people... cycling for less than an hour? it takes me half an hour to warm up! Two hours minimum for a decent ride that will provide any real exercise for those that cycle regularly- its quite a sedentary exercise in many ways. I have friends that do 50-100 mile endurance races ... 30 minutes is a rettibly low amount of exercise really. Even a total plodder like me would easily want an hour's running really.
Then there's the "but youve cycled two miles to work and back, that's your exercise" line - so if instead one drives to work one can THEN exercise later - so where's the sense in that?

The above is all com ci com ca though compared to the ... interesting... approach to what people can and cannot actually "do".

Some police forces interpretations seem out of kilter from what the Govt actually said - even the cabinet office said there is nothing preventing anyone from driving to exercise. I can see why they've come up with the "rules" themsleves given people allegedly driving tens of miles to a place, but as a friend said herself if she goes for a walk outside of her front door she is surrounded by people doing the same in her village. If she drives just ten minutes up the road then she has acres of space to herself. In this day of ANPR/cheks on registration plates it shoud be pretty easy to check if someone is 2 or 20 miles form home after all.

And this word "essential" ... Bojo never used it - he said "absolutely necessary" - without then defining whether that meant for the nation, business continuity or persoanl financial survival. Though the next day it was made clear that people SHOULD go to work if it cannot be done from home and had nothing to do with being "frontline" or "essential" etc

None of the above is to mean any criticism of eg the police. But a bit more joined up thinking and clarity from all involved and the dropping of a word like "essential" from comminuqes and media reports when it has never (as far as I know - happy to be wrong!) atually been used from the government would prevent much of these clashes of messages and advice from differing parties.

didds

[UncleEbenezer]

What do the coronavirus regulations actually mean in law.
John

Surely, as ever, it's whatever a court decides when someone brings a test case.

For any of these slightly-grey areas, nothing else is authoritative. Certainly not what a minister or a copper may think, let alone some geezer on t'net or some journo stirring it.

As for your bike or DIY examples, surely those can be inferred from whether the regulations allow the bike shop or DIY shed to remain open? AIUI they've said car mechanics can continue, so it would be seriously perverse not to do the same for bikes - or indeed homes to the extent of DIY.

I'm actually favourably impressed by our regulations, compared to what many other countries have done. Or indeed compared to the closure of the countryside in 2001: Stuttley understands as The Liar never did the importance of that little bit of fresh air and exercise.

[redsturgeon]

What do the coronavirus regulations actually mean in law.
John

Surely, as ever, it's whatever a court decides when someone brings a test case.

For any of these slightly-grey areas, nothing else is authoritative. Certainly not what a minister or a copper may think, let alone some geezer on t'net or some journo stirring it.

As for your bike or DIY examples, surely those can be inferred from whether the regulations allow the bike shop or DIY shed to remain open? AIUI they've said car mechanics can continue, so it would be seriously perverse not to do the same for bikes - or indeed homes to the extent of DIY.

I'm actually favourably impressed by our regulations, compared to what many other countries have done. Or indeed compared to the closure of the countryside in 2001: Stuttley understands as The Liar never did the importance of that little bit of fresh air and exercise.

I certainly prefer our approach to that of the French. On this thread though I was looking to try to keep politics out of it and look at the actual legalities. AFAIK DIY sheds and bike shops can stay open, so does that mean you are able to buy anything they sell?

As you say though most issues would have to be tested in the courts.

[pochisoldi]

Here's the legislation: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020 ... tents/made

and some answers based on it.

1. What is essential business? If my bike has a puncture can I take it to the local bike shop? Can I go to B&Q to buy supplies for DIY projects? Can I drive to pick up an item bought on eBay assuming I comply with reasonable social distancing measures? Can I buy an easter egg?

Your reasonable excuse is
6(2)(a) to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

So bike puncture - yes
B&Q/eBay item: Is it necessary?
Easter Egg: Depends: Special trip just to buy a present for girlfriend - no, Special trip, because a 4 year old is screaming the place down - possibly, as part of a bigger shop (for necessities) - yes.

2. The way I read the regulations, going out for exercise is OK. Boris said once a day, Gove said an hour walking, 30 minutes running or something in between for cycling. AFAIK none of these suggestions are anything more than that and I can legally go out as many times as I like for as long as I like.
Also if I want to practise golf in the local park or go kayaking all day then legally that's OK too. Am I right?

Your views regarding "once a day" and "time limits" tally with mine, however despite the cardio work out provided by whacking golf balls is unlikely to be appreciate by busybodies. Going out for a kayak trip would be considered irresponsible due to the danger of injury.

3. What is the legal situation if I am stopped by the police and they want to know where I am going? Do I have to tell them or does my right to remain silent still apply?

If you have a legitimate excuse for being out, and you don't provide it/aren't honest, you instantly fail the attitude test, don't be surprised if they give you a ticket. IMHO Silence=No reasonable excuse. And if you fail to give your name and address, you'll get nicked.

4. As far a I can tell there is nothing in the regulations to stop me getting in my car or on my motorbike and having a bimble around the country. Am I right?

Going for a bimble is not a reasonable excuse.

On the other hand, as far as the "drive to exercise" thing is concerned, it isn't permitted, but then again, nor is it banned.
Or put another way, IMHO, loading a car with 1xadult bike+2xkids bikes to drive 2 miles so the kids can have a safe exercise is OK.
Getting in your car to drive 2 miles so you can have a countryside walk alone, would require a bit more justification.

As an aside, I'm starting to get p***ed off with people who seem to be discovering their inner Stasi-informant and have started complaining about "next door taking their dog for a walk 3 times a day", "such-a-body who exercises for an hour and a half", "a couple who took more than an hour to walk 6 miles". The real issue is people who walk straight towards down the middle of an empty 3 metre wide footpath and won't move to one side or the other... (rant over)

[Dod101]

I think you have to remember why these regulations are there. They are there to try to stop the spreading of the virus so that last weekend when in the Strathclyde Country park we had cars lined up on the roadside so that people could go far a ramble, the pedestrians almost certainly found it difficult to keep to the two metres apart rule. That is why police do not want everyone jumping in to their cars to go off to walk because mostly they will go to the same place. You can hardly spread the virus if you are sitting in your car either alone or with the family you are with all the time.

I live in semi rural Scotland and could jump in my car and drive somewhere where I know there might be another car but no more. No harm to anyone but regulations cannot proscribe to that degree of detail so they will take the broad general view of banning such car trips although they have not quite gone that far and left it I suppose to the discretion of the police who are not necessarily the best people to apply discretion. They like a rule to be black or white.

Is a regulation a law anyway?

Dod

[swill453]

People in England are allowed to go for as many walks a day as they want, according to a human rights barrister who says the law does not match the government advice.

Adam Wagner of Doughty Street Chambers told BBC News that the law referred to having a "reasonable excuse" to leave your house - rather than the four reasons Boris Johnson gave in last week's briefing.

"The four reasons is the guidance people are following. In fact that’s the guidance a lot of police are following," he said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52101615

Scott.

[UncleIan]

2. The way I read the regulations, going out for exercise is OK. Boris said once a day, Gove said an hour walking, 30 minutes running or something in between for cycling. AFAIK none of these suggestions are anything more than that and I can legally go out as many times as I like for as long as I like.
Also if I want to practise golf in the local park or go kayaking all day then legally that's OK too. Am I right?

Your views regarding "once a day" and "time limits" tally with mine, however despite the cardio work out provided by whacking golf balls is unlikely to be appreciate by busybodies. Going out for a kayak trip would be considered irresponsible due to the danger of injury.

Om your last point...it depends. white water kayaking you may well have a point...on a canal, not so much. And in a kayak it's easier to keep more than 2m apart than it is to get closer, as your kayak can be roughly 2m long (though they do vary alot), and your paddle is also roughly 2m long. That said, if you have to travel to put your kayak in the water, that's hardly essential. If you're lucky enough to live on the water's edge, no problem.

Which if nothing else just shows the difficulty of trying to set hard and fast rules.

[pochisoldi]

Is a regulation a law anyway?

It forms part of the body of statute law, which (AFAIK) consists of primary legislation (acts) and secondary legislation (Statutory Instruments aka Regulations)

Acts are made by parliament.
Regulations are made by government minsters under powers conferred by an Act of Parliament.
(Back in the old days, EU regulations would be translated mainly by either route)

For example "The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020" SI 2020/350 has the following:

"The Secretary of State makes the following Regulations in exercise of the powers conferred by sections 45C(1), (3)(c), (4)(d), 45F(2) and 45P of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984(1). "
and were signed off by Matt Hancock

For readers who are bored, a mooch around https://www.legislation.gov.uk/new/uksi or https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi might yield some interesting reading, showing the big and small stuff that what lands in the Government's lap, and what powers they use to deal with it.

[didds]

I think you have to remember why these regulations are there. They are there to try to stop the spreading of the virus so that last weekend when in the Strathclyde Country park we had cars lined up on the roadside so that people could go far a ramble, the pedestrians almost certainly found it difficult to keep to the two metres apart rule. That is why police do not want everyone jumping in to their cars to go off to walk because mostly they will go to the same place. You can hardly spread the virus if you are sitting in your car either alone or with the family you are with all the time.

exactly. but thats a long chalk from driving two miles to commonland when your option is a housing estate full of people walking from home. Potentially.

ANPR etc would seem to be a sensible merthod to ascertain if people are likely to be close to home (caveat over the registered keeper thing)
As opposed to some sort of blanket "ban".

Its the infelxibility of the approach etc

didds

[swill453]

ANPR etc would seem to be a sensible merthod to ascertain if people are likely to be close to home (caveat over the registered keeper thing)
As opposed to some sort of blanket "ban".

Its the infelxibility of the approach etc

Using ANPR would add a massive amount of inflexibility. It couldn't tell you if someone's working, or shopping, or attending to a vulnerable person etc.

Scott.

[Dod101]

Hi didds I understand what you are saying. I feel sorry for those living three floors up in a small flat believe me. The police though as I said somewhere else are not trained on discretion. They judge black or white. Maybe they will get better as time goes by.

Dod

[didds]

ANPR etc would seem to be a sensible merthod to ascertain if people are likely to be close to home (caveat over the registered keeper thing)
As opposed to some sort of blanket "ban".

Its the infelxibility of the approach etc

Using ANPR would add a massive amount of inflexibility. It couldn't tell you if someone's working, or shopping, or attending to a vulnerable person etc.

Scott.

/?? when checking out if somebody walking a dog is 1 or 10 miles from home? Im not following why they would be at a beauty spot if attending to a vulnerable person? (for example)

At the moment it seems to be "you are exercising. You have a car. You are nicked." ANPR/whatever could at loeats potentially indicate if that person has come 1 mile or 10 miles. That's ll.

[AF62]

2. The way I read the regulations, going out for exercise is OK. Boris said once a day, Gove said an hour walking, 30 minutes running or something in between for cycling. AFAIK none of these suggestions are anything more than that and I can legally go out as many times as I like for as long as I like.

You can go out as many times as you want to exercise in England - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

6 (1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;


But in Wales you can only go out once a day - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2020/ ... ion/8/made

8.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b)to take exercise, no more than once a day, either alone or with other members of the household;

*Insert joke here*

[pochisoldi]

2. The way I read the regulations, going out for exercise is OK. Boris said once a day, Gove said an hour walking, 30 minutes running or something in between for cycling. AFAIK none of these suggestions are anything more than that and I can legally go out as many times as I like for as long as I like.

You can go out as many times as you want to exercise in England - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

6 (1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;


But in Wales you can only go out once a day - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2020/ ... ion/8/made

8.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b)to take exercise, no more than once a day, either alone or with other members of the household;

The Welsh "once a day for exercise" rule is easily subverted:

1) Don't get caught, and if you do get caught make sure you have a shopping list, a carrier bag and money/card for your essential supplies.

2) If you are not fit, and cannot exercise for an extended period (and therefore need a second trip out), or if you exercise for "mind" rather than fitness, invoke
"(m)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm."

Anyone who isn't "fit" should consider taking exercise to improve their breathing and cardiovascular health.
That way if/when you get COVID, you have more lung capacity and/or more ability to absorb oxygen with the bit of the lungs you do use, and make it that more difficult if COVID gets on your lungs. That bit of exercise could be the difference between "ventilator and CPAP", "CPAP and oxygen", or "oxygen and staying at home feeling pooped".
Not sure whether this will help you if your body has an immune overreaction (cytokine storm), but it won't do you any harm.

I've been encouraging my mum (>70) to do a regular brisk walk around the block.

Personally I've been going out once a day for exercise, and the usual brisk walk to the shops when required. (England)

PS There is a psychological benefit to be had by knowing that I could go out for a second walk/run/bike ride.
"It's there, but I choose not to do it." is a personal freedom.