The Lemon Fool

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Well, showing some degree of naivety, I placed an order by email with a company in Lancashire for a couple of custom made components. When I say naive, against my normally better judgment, the trader offered a discount for bank transfer rather than credit card payment. I know why now, of course***. Anyway, the money was duly paid on request last November. By Christmas/New Year, I said don't ship the goods till the New Year due to losses in the post etc.... Anyway, here we are in April. I still don't have the goods. The usual emails, "we're working on it this week" etc..... So, this week I mailed and said if they can't guarantee completion by next week, I want my money back. This triggered torrents of abusive emails. I still don't have the goods or the money. We are talking about just over £300. Not a massive amount of money. But not something I want to write off as bad experience. What would the fools here do next?

*** It means he can rip people off and those people cannot put the payment into dispute with the credit card provider.

Thanks.

RVF.

Just to clarify. The company is in Lancashire, but the goods are being "shipped". So is the manufacture outside the UK and you have been dealing with a UK company that is sourcing them, or is that just "language". Not being picky, but "where" are the goods? It will be easier to take possession if they are physically in the UK.

The fact that he responded with a torrent of abuse does not fill one with confidence that he is a bona fide reliable trader.

You could say that as he has been unable to supply the goods ordered after a more than reasonable time you are cancelling the order and he should refund your money by xxx date.

If not you will submit your claim to the small claims court and they will deal with the matter

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/recla ... ourt/#cost

Only costs you £25 for a claim of thsi size

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:

scrumpyjack wrote:The fact that he responded with a torrent of abuse does not fill one with confidence that he is a bona fide reliable trader.

You could say that as he has been unable to supply the goods ordered after a more than reasonable time you are cancelling the order and he should refund your money by xxx date.

If not you will submit your claim to the small claims court and they will deal with the matter

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/recla ... ourt/#cost

Only costs you £25 for a claim of thsi size

Thanks, that is indeed one route I am thinking about. Only hesitate because it is a Ltd Co. They have little cash on their last set of accounts lodged at Companies House. I also found this owner has had five different business names in ten years. It seems he regularly flips the identity of his business once the bad reputation becomes too widespread. If only I did the due diligence before parting with my money. I fear if I win a small claim action, he won't pay which would then mean paying more money to engage a debt collector. This person has been in this for at least a decade he knows all the angles.

Given the research you have posted. File at Small Claims, after following the pre-action protocol meticulously. He/she may pay up. If not take your court order for payment refund + costs, and seek a winding up petition. You are doing everyone a favour if you do this, otherwise he/she will just mug other punters.

regards, dspp

An alternative or additional option is to report him to Trading Standards

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consu ... standards/

They may at least give you some advice on what to do, or follow it up themselves

scrumpyjack wrote:An alternative or additional option is to report him to Trading Standards

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consu ... standards/

They may at least give you some advice on what to do, or follow it up themselves

Yes and you can seek to have him disqualified as a director.

Regards, dspp

(His) local trading standards office is a good idea. They may not get your money back, but they can seriously interfere with traders and even prosecute frequent offenders. If no one tells them, they can't act. Course they probably aren't doing much in the current cicrcumstances, but if you don't tell them, nothing can happen.

Gryff

You mentioned that you have read the company accounts. Have a look to see whether the company has any loans. Also has he (or any other directors - including co secretary - is it his wife?) taken large amounts of money out of the company either by wages and/or dividends. Some time ago, my small company had a similar situation and suggesting that I would personally go down the director disqualification route and/or inform his lender of his practices certainly helped quickly resolved my situation - after my accountant insisted on pussyfooting around.

I have to say my situation did involve a lot more money.

T7

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:

gryffron wrote:(His) local trading standards office is a good idea. They may not get your money back, but they can seriously interfere with traders and even prosecute frequent offenders. If no one tells them, they can't act. Course they probably aren't doing much in the current cicrcumstances, but if you don't tell them, nothing can happen.

Gryff

Thanks for those suggestions. If the money doesn't arrive in my bank by close of play today, I think I will make one further request for next Friday. The Corona virus card is already in play by the trader. He claims he can't make an electronic bank transfer because his security device is in his office and he is at home. Lame excuse really, he works on his own so won't meet anyone else going to get it. So, no chance of infection transfer. But I want to be seen to be very reasonable. I did wonder about a complaint to Lancashire Trading Standards dept via the CAB. I can easily do that electronically. That's what I am going to do. Thanks for the ongoing interest. It helps me keep a logical and clear way forward.

Cheers

RVF

Make that request as a "letter before action" - see online (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-a ... all-claim/). If you don't you are just wasting your time, because you must followed the protocols. He/she is more experienced at this than you are. Follow the practice direction precisely (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-a ... rt-action/).

regards, dspp

dspp wrote:Given the research you have posted. File at Small Claims, after following the pre-action protocol meticulously. He/she may pay up. If not take your court order for payment refund + costs, and seek a winding up petition. You are doing everyone a favour if you do this, otherwise he/she will just mug other punters.

Unfortunately this is not an option, as you can only issue a winding up petition if the debt is at least £750.

However, if you've any means of advertising for fellow victims - on Fakebook, for example - you could all club together and issue a WUP, though it's an expensive and far from straightforward procedure.

The only real option is the small claims court, but it's generally hopeless when you're dealing with a one man outfit like this, who probably papers his wall with County Court Claim Forms. Not only does it take several months (even longer while the CV situation exists) but even if you finally get judgment you still have to enforce it, and by then the company will probably have disappeared.

I placed an order by email with a company in Lancashire for a couple of custom made components.

Can you name and shame the company? If they're local I may have had dealings with them, and even if I haven't come across them naming them will at least prevent other Fools being taken in and help spread the word.

By all means try Trading Standards, but in my experience they're as much use as the proverbial chocolate teapot. They're well-intentioned, but they're so underfunded they don't have the resources to pursue relatively small traders like this.

Thanks, his wife/sister/cousin, a lady with the same family name is co-director. This person frequently flips the business name. For my debt, I think my options are limited. These people know exactly what they're doing. They have drawn about £70k in salary and dividends. The last accounts filed showed about £2500 net cash.

I assume no loans/borrowings?

There at times where its best to let go - I know so unjust - but just not worth hassle/worry. A proportion of society have always operated on this level - only lesson at end of day - is to try and avoid.

I can tell you with my above mentioned problem I went round to the company office demanded to see the MD and started telling other people in the reception area very clearly without emotion what a **** Mr X was etc. The matter was settled in minutes by Mr X subject to me signing a NDA that covered the other companies that were party to the non-payment to others on the same contract.

T7

There is probably an obvious answer, but if a company is deliberately operating by taking money for a claimed product, with no intention of actually providing this product, is in not a criminal act rather than a civil one?

Just wondering why it cannot be reported to the police as a fraud, or deception or similar, and in a prosecution, the defendant ordered (personally?) to pay compensation under pain of a higher sentence.

Wasn't there a Hancock sketch where he, as disgruntled creditor, went and sat in the company's reception area with a dead fish under his coat and refused to move til they paid up.

They paid.

staffordian wrote:There is probably an obvious answer, but if a company is deliberately operating by taking money for a claimed product, with no intention of actually providing this product, is in not a criminal act rather than a civil one?

Yes, it could be a criminal act in theory, but in practice you could never prove intent, as the company owner would simply say they intended to deliver the product but were prevented from doing so for reasons outside their control.

To obtain a conviction the CPS need to prove guilt `beyond reasonable doubt', and it's virtually impossible in cases like this.

Clitheroekid wrote:

staffordian wrote:There is probably an obvious answer, but if a company is deliberately operating by taking money for a claimed product, with no intention of actually providing this product, is in not a criminal act rather than a civil one?

Yes, it could be a criminal act in theory, but in practice you could never prove intent, as the company owner would simply say they intended to deliver the product but were prevented from doing so for reasons outside their control.

To obtain a conviction the CPS need to prove guilt `beyond reasonable doubt', and it's virtually impossible in cases like this.

Does the tort of conversion apply?

AiYn'U

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Well let's see what happens next. No immediate response. Emails are usually responded to quickly, but with a torrent of unpleasantness. Either they take it seriously or they are ignoring it. Myself, I guess the latter case.

RVF.

I hope you sent it snailmail recorded delivery signed for with proof of posting etc, and archived all the receipts from the POst Office and the online proof page, plus copy by email.

regards, dspp

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:

dspp wrote:I hope you sent it snailmail recorded delivery signed for with proof of posting etc, and archived all the receipts from the POst Office and the online proof page, plus copy by email.

regards, dspp

Yes, though interesting that the advice on reputable web pages is that it is not essential to do so.

Not only is it not essential, but it's often not advisable at all.

Rogue traders like this are experts at dodging creditors, and know all too well that a recorded delivery letter only ever brings bad news. So they will simply refuse to sign for it.

The net result is that the creditor is actually prevented from suing, as he knows for a fact that the debtor never received the letter.

It's far better just to use normal first class post (though it's sensible to obtain a certificate of posting). There is a legal presumption that this will arrive on the second working day after posting, so that the burden of proof shifts to the debtor, who has to convince the court that it did not arrive. This is virtually impossible to prove, and, especially when a judge can see what sort of character he's dealing with, such an argument would hardly ever succeed.

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:He claims he can't make an electronic bank transfer because his security device is in his office

so no telephone banking avaiable either? Or snail mail instructions?

he's bullshitting.

But you know that

didds

Congrats on your success.

Might still be worth a note to trading standards? Of course your note wouldn't make a case in isolation, but it could perhaps contribute to a body of evidence if it's one of many.

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Absolutely, apart from a tiger eating his cheque book, I have heard it all. Of course, the virus card is firmly in play.

I have a security device for payments and over a certain amount I cannot make payments from my mobile and need the security device.

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:

UncleEbenezer wrote:Might still be worth a note to trading standards.

Of course your note wouldn't make a case in isolation. But it might perhaps contribute to a body of evidence, if it's one of many.

Good point, little work in doing that. Just notify them on the web through the CAB.

And you might also paste the same info into Send Your Story to BBC Watchdog on the same basis. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74