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Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

including wills and probate
dealtn
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329249

Postby dealtn » July 28th, 2020, 6:55 pm

teecee90 wrote:An update

Family tree and certificates submitted to the Bona Vancatia department and the estate has now been turned over to my wife to manage and distribute to beneficiaries as personal representative. So far, everything has been relatively straights forward with just some fairly small bank balances claimed and received.

We have now come across a couple of not so straightforward issues:

1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?

2) There is a small holding of 279 shares in Lloyds Banking Group (held through Equiniti), which are worth about £80 at the current SP. Apparently there is a countersignature fee of £34.50 and an admin fee of £45.00 for getting these shares signed over. Presumably there would also be a dealing fee to sell the shares, effectively making them worthless. So....what to do about these shares?

All comments and suggestions gratefully received.


2) If they are effectively worthless anyway (and you aren't trying to find a way to get a few pounds to divide up amongst the beneficiaries) it can be worth approaching Lloyds to explain the situation (and/or Equiniti too if they won't play ball) and ask them about how to gift them to a charity. There is a Lloyds charitable foundation and they might even match the amount of the gift too.

staffordian
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329252

Postby staffordian » July 28th, 2020, 7:15 pm

teecee90 wrote:
1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?


All comments and suggestions gratefully received.


Could one beneficiary have less now but receive the monthly payments to equalise the amounts?

teecee90
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329256

Postby teecee90 » July 28th, 2020, 7:44 pm

staffordian wrote:
teecee90 wrote:
1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?


All comments and suggestions gratefully received.


Could one beneficiary have less now but receive the monthly payments to equalise the amounts?


Apparently the amount paid is reviewed annually on 17th October and can go up as well as down depending on the performance of the underlying fund....so we wont know for sure how much the full payment will be until October 2021 at the earliest.

scottnsilky
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329257

Postby scottnsilky » July 28th, 2020, 7:45 pm

teecee90 wrote:An update

Family tree and certificates submitted to the Bona Vancatia department and the estate has now been turned over to my wife to manage and distribute to beneficiaries as personal representative. So far, everything has been relatively straights forward with just some fairly small bank balances claimed and received.

We have now come across a couple of not so straightforward issues:

1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?

2) There is a small holding of 279 shares in Lloyds Banking Group (held through Equiniti), which are worth about £80 at the current SP. Apparently there is a countersignature fee of £34.50 and an admin fee of £45.00 for getting these shares signed over. Presumably there would also be a dealing fee to sell the shares, effectively making them worthless. So....what to do about these shares?

All comments and suggestions gratefully received.


With regard to point 2, what about donating to a charity? I had a small holding in Premier Food a few years ago, not enough to sell, as in your case. I phoned HL and they will transfer the shares, without charge, to a charity which specialises in accepting small numbers of shares,. Equiniti may do so as well. From memory, the charity is called Sharegift, I think thats the right name.

Mike4
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329259

Postby Mike4 » July 28th, 2020, 7:59 pm

teecee90 wrote:1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?


My guess would be one way to deal with this might be to pay all the remaining monthly premia now (i.e. in advance), then the policy becomes fully paid up and the company can perhaps pay out the final benefit now.

Dod101
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329261

Postby Dod101 » July 28th, 2020, 8:15 pm

Mike4 wrote:
teecee90 wrote:1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?


My guess would be one way to deal with this might be to pay all the remaining monthly premia now (i.e. in advance), then the policy becomes fully paid up and the company can perhaps pay out the final benefit now.


If it is a guaranteed annuity, there will not be any premiums involved. There will be provision in the annuity wording for what happens if death occurs before the end of the guaranteed period. Check on that. It ought to be straightforward. They will probably pay out a slightly smaller commuted sum now (that is the present value of the monthly payments promised until 2022)

Dod

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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329263

Postby teecee90 » July 28th, 2020, 8:18 pm

Mike4 wrote:
teecee90 wrote:1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?


My guess would be one way to deal with this might be to pay all the remaining monthly premia now (i.e. in advance), then the policy becomes fully paid up and the company can perhaps pay out the final benefit now.


There is no premia left to pay, just annuity income to receive.

teecee90
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329266

Postby teecee90 » July 28th, 2020, 8:59 pm

This is exactly what it says in the letter from Prudential:

"I am sorry to hear about the death of your cousin ..... under the terms of the annuity the monthly amount of £114.04 was payable during your cousin's life. The annuity was paid in advance. Payment of this annuity is guaranteed until 17th September 2022. As your cousin died before the end of the guarantee, we will continue to make monthly payments of £114.04 as directed by you, from 17th April 2020 until the last payment due date. As this guarantee is set up to be paid as regular payments this cannot be changed to be paid out as a lump sum. The annuity income amount is subject to review on 17th October each year. The new income is calculated using the required smoothed return needed to maintain the current level of income (currently 3.84%) and the actual smoothed return declared for the annuity - the level of which will primarily depend on the performance of our With Profits Fund. The income can go down as well as up. The required smoothed return of 3.84% cannot be amended, nor can the annuity be converted to a Prudential guaranteed pension annuity. Please be aware there are tax implications depending on who receives the annuity and in what capacity. Should the annuity be paid to a beneficiary (an executor or personal representative can also be a beneficiary) the payments will be tax free. Should the executor / personal representative nominate themselves in their official capacity as executor or personal representative of the estate and not as the ultimate beneficiary of the annuity payments, we will deduct tax at basic rate"

At this stage, it looks like there will be 4 or 5 beneficiaries, one of which is my wife who is also acting as personal representative.

Dod101
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329267

Postby Dod101 » July 28th, 2020, 9:37 pm

teecee90 wrote:This is exactly what it says in the letter from Prudential:

"I am sorry to hear about the death of your cousin ..... under the terms of the annuity the monthly amount of £114.04 was payable during your cousin's life. The annuity was paid in advance. Payment of this annuity is guaranteed until 17th September 2022. As your cousin died before the end of the guarantee, we will continue to make monthly payments of £114.04 as directed by you, from 17th April 2020 until the last payment due date. As this guarantee is set up to be paid as regular payments this cannot be changed to be paid out as a lump sum. The annuity income amount is subject to review on 17th October each year. The new income is calculated using the required smoothed return needed to maintain the current level of income (currently 3.84%) and the actual smoothed return declared for the annuity - the level of which will primarily depend on the performance of our With Profits Fund. The income can go down as well as up. The required smoothed return of 3.84% cannot be amended, nor can the annuity be converted to a Prudential guaranteed pension annuity. Please be aware there are tax implications depending on who receives the annuity and in what capacity. Should the annuity be paid to a beneficiary (an executor or personal representative can also be a beneficiary) the payments will be tax free. Should the executor / personal representative nominate themselves in their official capacity as executor or personal representative of the estate and not as the ultimate beneficiary of the annuity payments, we will deduct tax at basic rate"

At this stage, it looks like there will be 4 or 5 beneficiaries, one of which is my wife who is also acting as personal representative.


That is interesting and at least it is clear and unambiguous. The amount of the payments depend on the return on the With profits fund. I have not often seen that. So if the proceeds of the estate are to be divided amongst several beneficiaries then it would seem that you have no option but to allow the payments to accumulate until 2022 and then make the distribution.. Just as well the guaranteed payments do not go until 2032!

Dod

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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329357

Postby teecee90 » July 29th, 2020, 9:39 am

Thanks Dod, that’s what I’m thinking too, although I wonder whether it might be acceptable to maybe make an interim distribution and then a final payment when the annuity has finished in 2022.

Part of the problem is that the estate is so small that it doesn’t seem worth appointing a solicitor to deal with things.

Dod101
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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329359

Postby Dod101 » July 29th, 2020, 9:44 am

I am no expert on these matters but I would not appoint a solicitor and is it really worthwhile making an interim payment? As Executor you need to decide and maybe see what the beneficiaries would like?

Dod

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Re: Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

#329466

Postby Avantegarde » July 29th, 2020, 4:19 pm

Simple solution: your wife tells the insurer she will receive all remaining payments (30 or so monthly instalments) in her capacity as a beneficiary and agrees with the others to split all the proceeds equally when the last payment arrives in September 2022. As she is a beneficiary (as well as the personal representative) then on the basis of what is stated in a post above there may be no tax to be withheld by the insurer.


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