Bona Vacantia - Heir Hunters.

[teecee90]

Yesterday my wife and her two sisters started getting telephone calls from several “Heir Hunter” companies. Turns out that their cousin died intestate in April this year and his name appeared on the published BVD list yesterday, so they were very quick off the mark. A very sad event that none of the family were aware of and obviously didn’t even get to go to the funeral. Apart from the shock of the sad news and disappointment at not being made aware at the time an therefore attend the funeral, there is now a decision to be made about whether and which Heir Hunter firm to sign up with.

The case was referred to the BVD by his local council. Based on what we know, he lived in a Council house and is unlikely to have significant assets, although the value of the estate has not been disclosed at this point. The Heid hunters are quoting commission of between 6-15% plus expenses.

If I understand correctly, the first person to make a valid claim to the BVD gets to administer the estate and a claim can be made directly by the beneficiaries or their nominated representative (Eg one of the heir hunters).

Does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing and can give a view on whether it is best to “do if yourself” or to use one of the heir Hunter firms? If the latter, any advice on how to select the best firm?

Thanks

[AF62]

Turns out that their cousin died intestate in April this year and his name appeared on the published BVD list yesterday

Sorry if I am being a bit dim, but if you now know about the cousin then why do you need the “Heir Hunter” companies? If the cousin died intestate then surely whatever assets exist will be distributed by the set rules.

I thought the point of these “Heir Hunter” companies was to trace the relatives of someone who had dies and offer to tell them who had died for a fee - don't pay then don't find out so can't claim. But if you now know who it was, what can they 'sell' you?

[teecee90]

Turns out that their cousin died intestate in April this year and his name appeared on the published BVD list yesterday

Sorry if I am being a bit dim, but if you now know about the cousin then why do you need the “Heir Hunter” companies? If the cousin died intestate then surely whatever assets exist will be distributed by the set rules.

I thought the point of these “Heir Hunter” companies was to trace the relatives of someone who had dies and offer to tell them who had died for a fee - don't pay then don't find out so can't claim. But if you now know who it was, what can they 'sell' you?

As I understand it, the service they offer is:
a) to prove your entitlement through preparation of a family tree with supporting records and to make a 'claim' to the BVD
b) to act as or appoint an administrator (solicitor) on behalf of the beneficiaries, trace all other potential beneficiaries and distribute the estate accordingly.

One of the heir hunters has stated that, as well as my wife and her two sisters, there are potentially 4 other beneficiaries.

[mutantpoodle]

charges...6-15% PLUS expenses

what are expenses?...time in hours of staff/share of office rents etc etc etc

its ok if its only the odd petrol cost for required journey but take care you dont end up paying salaries as well

[didds]

I dont get this stuff...

If these heir hunters hadn't contacted you, you wouldn't know the cousin had died, wouldn't know there may be some inheritance maybe you could get. Don't invoke the HH and you are at status quo.

If the laws of intestate-ship (whatever the word is) say you will get something from the estate then you will get it anyway. If you won't by those laws, you won't get anything.

I'm not undertandijg what HH can actually bring anyone that they wouldnt get in such circumstances anyway?

didds

[Dod101]

Surely this is Bona Vacantia, the Crown, protecting themselves, in a situation where there is no Will and no knowledge of relatives. There now is knowledge of at least one set of relatives and surely they can wind up the estate? I do not know the position if the case is now being handled by the Crown though and I expect you need to get their agreement to appoint one or more of your wife and her two sisters as executor but then of course your wife and/or her sisters would need to ensure that they know of everyone who might be a beneficiary.

I would have thought that the Crown would have been happy that your wife and sisters are happy to handle this themselves and I cannot see that you anything to the bounty hunters since you did not appoint them.

Dod

[swill453]

One of the heir hunters has stated that, as well as my wife and her two sisters, there are potentially 4 other beneficiaries.

Could just be a try-on to scare you into using them.

If there's no will and deceased had no living spouse and parents, and had never had children, then siblings (or their offspring) inherit everything equally. This applies in England/Scotland/Wales/NI.

See https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will

Scott.

[swill453]

If there's no will and deceased had no living spouse and parents, and had never had children, then siblings (or their offspring) inherit everything equally. This applies in England/Scotland/Wales/NI.

Actually, ignore that, it's probably not relevant. I misread cousin for sister. So there may be more cousins.

Scott.

[Clitheroekid]

If the laws of intestate-ship (whatever the word is) say you will get something from the estate then you will get it anyway.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. In the case of an intestacy someone has to apply to the Court to be appointed as Administrator of the estate. If nobody makes such an application the estate will remain unadministered, and vest in the Crown.

I do not know the position if the case is now being handled by the Crown though and I expect you need to get their agreement to appoint one or more of your wife and her two sisters as executor

No, you don't need their agreement. The question of who is entitled to administer the estate of an intestate is governed by law, not by agreement. There is a hierarchy of next of kin that can apply, based on how closely related they are. For example, the first in entitlement is the spouse, followed by the children, then the parents etc. It's only if that process reveals no living relatives that the Crown is entitled to administer the estate, as a last resort.

The important question, from a practical point of view, is the value of the estate. If it's only, say, £10k, then a fee of 6% - 15% may be reasonable (though I don't understand why the percentage appears to be variable). If it's £100k then it certainly isn't.

I would also want to know what `expenses' means. For example, if they just (in return for a hefty bribe, sorry, `referral fee') hand the file to a solicitor with whom they are working the expenses might include the solicitor's charges of £500 + VAT an hour, so that their final bill, like that of a liquidator, would be carefully calculated to match the exact value of the estate!

Consequently, if you don't know the approximate size of the estate you can't reach an informed judgment. I believe this information is generally available from the Treasury Solicitor, so I would insist on knowing before contemplating signing any agreeent.

It wouldn't be that difficult for your wife to deal with it herself, now that she knows the identity of the deceased. The problem is that she would be doing all the work but would only get the same share as anyone else. The best solution might therefore be to appoint a professional to do the paperwork, so that their fees could be paid as a first charge on the estate, but at a cost less than that being proposed by the heir hunters.

[teecee90]

Thanks for the replies so far. To clarify a few things. At this stage it would appear that the closest living relatives are 7 cousins, three on the paternal side of the family (my wife and her two sisters) and four on the maternal side.

Today my wife has received three letters in the post from various heir hunters offering their services. Two have quoted a commission of 10% and one has quoted 8%. Others quoted yesterday on the phone ranged from 6% to 15%.

Looking at one of the letters, the section on additional charges states "In all cases there are fees payable to the solicitor administering and distributing the assets (if required) or the Government Legal Department. These are deducted from the estate prior to the calculation of individual entitlement. If you decide to appoint your own solicitor this may incur direct cost. This is why we have forged strong links with out independent solicitors to ensure that costs are kept as minimal as possible. We are therefore able to assist with the appointment of a solicitor if none has been appointed, or if no solicitor is required, we will undertake the administration. In this instance we will reclaim reasonable expenses incurred in administering the estate. These will be agreed be beneficiaries prior to distribution and deductible from the estate."

As indicated in my original post, my understanding is that the first person to successfully claim the estate from the government has responsibility for administering the estate and would therefore be responsible for obtaining Letters of Administration and/or appointment of a solicitor to do the administration work. From what I can gather, if the value of the estate is less than £15k then Letters of Administration may not actually be necessary.

It seems to me that the key risk for whoever ends up administering the estate is failure to identify all beneficiaries and a claim subsequently being made against the estate after distribution. It may be that the services of an heir hunter or similar researchers may be necessary to mitigate this risk, but could perhaps be commissioned at a fixed fee rather than a percentage of the estate.

Apparently, the government solicitor (BVD) do not disclose the value of the estate until a valid claim has been made.

[scrumpyjack]

Wouldn't the first thing to do be to contact the other cousins and see if any of them know anything or are willing to deal with it?
At least you might want to make sure they don't sign up one or more of these firms before you have all agreed what to do?

One of them might have some idea of the value of the estate?

[teecee90]

Wouldn't the first thing to do be to contact the other cousins and see if any of them know anything or are willing to deal with it?
At least you might want to make sure they don't sign up one or more of these firms before you have all agreed what to do?

One of them might have some idea of the value of the estate?

We are obviously in contact with the other cousins on our side (the wife's two sisters) and will agree an approach between us, but have no idea who the 4 maternal cousins are as the heir hunters haven't disclosed this information to us.

[Dod101]

Wouldn't the first thing to do be to contact the other cousins and see if any of them know anything or are willing to deal with it?
At least you might want to make sure they don't sign up one or more of these firms before you have all agreed what to do?

One of them might have some idea of the value of the estate?

We are obviously in contact with the other cousins on our side (the wife's two sisters) and will agree an approach between us, but have no idea who the 4 maternal cousins are as the heir hunters haven't disclosed this information to us.

It should not be too difficult surely to discover this by a bit of family research and then on a genealogy site if you have to.

Dod

[SteMiS]

Yesterday my wife and her two sisters started getting telephone calls from several “Heir Hunter” companies. Turns out that their cousin died intestate in April this year and his name appeared on the published BVD list yesterday, so they were very quick off the mark. A very sad event that none of the family were aware of and obviously didn’t even get to go to the funeral. Apart from the shock of the sad news and disappointment at not being made aware at the time an therefore attend the funeral, there is now a decision to be made about whether and which Heir Hunter firm to sign up with.

The case was referred to the BVD by his local council. Based on what we know, he lived in a Council house and is unlikely to have significant assets, although the value of the estate has not been disclosed at this point. The Heid hunters are quoting commission of between 6-15% plus expenses.

If I understand correctly, the first person to make a valid claim to the BVD gets to administer the estate and a claim can be made directly by the beneficiaries or their nominated representative (Eg one of the heir hunters).

Does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing and can give a view on whether it is best to “do if yourself” or to use one of the heir Hunter firms? If the latter, any advice on how to select the best firm?

Thanks

Yes, this has happened to me. I got a letter from an heir hunter and their commission was 25% + VAT (= 30%) !! When I rung my mother she said, yes it'll be your late father's cousin Ronnie. When I checked the bona vacantia web site there he was. So I didn't sign the letter.

Ronnie never married, had no children and wasn't particularly close to the family, dying in residential care. Turns out Ronnie had 15 cousins, including my late father. My interest, with my two siblings, was therefore 1/45th. Every other beneficiary signed the commission agreement despite everyone seemingly knowing who it was. Easy money for the heir hunters. The problem of course was who was going to act as personal representative to authorise the wind up and distribution of the estate. In the end, since no-one else looked like they were going to do it, I discussed it with some of the family and then did it, agreeing a fixed fee with the heir hunter solicitor to do the administration. My inheritance? - £218

My advice would be not to sign the commission agreement, especially if everyone else has. I'm sure any solicitors on here will say I was unwise to act as persona representative but it was a fairly simple estate and frankly, if I hadn't have done it, it would have all ended up going to the crown.

[teecee90]

Yesterday my wife and her two sisters started getting telephone calls from several “Heir Hunter” companies. Turns out that their cousin died intestate in April this year and his name appeared on the published BVD list yesterday, so they were very quick off the mark. A very sad event that none of the family were aware of and obviously didn’t even get to go to the funeral. Apart from the shock of the sad news and disappointment at not being made aware at the time an therefore attend the funeral, there is now a decision to be made about whether and which Heir Hunter firm to sign up with.

The case was referred to the BVD by his local council. Based on what we know, he lived in a Council house and is unlikely to have significant assets, although the value of the estate has not been disclosed at this point. The Heid hunters are quoting commission of between 6-15% plus expenses.

If I understand correctly, the first person to make a valid claim to the BVD gets to administer the estate and a claim can be made directly by the beneficiaries or their nominated representative (Eg one of the heir hunters).

Does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing and can give a view on whether it is best to “do if yourself” or to use one of the heir Hunter firms? If the latter, any advice on how to select the best firm?

Thanks

Yes, this has happened to me. I got a letter from an heir hunter and their commission was 25% + VAT (= 30%) !! When I rung my mother she said, yes it'll be your late father's cousin Ronnie. When I checked the bona vacantia web site there he was. So I didn't sign the letter.

Ronnie never married, had no children and wasn't particularly close to the family, dying in residential care. Turns out Ronnie had 15 cousins, including my late father. My interest, with my two siblings, was therefore 1/45th. Every other beneficiary signed the commission agreement despite everyone seemingly knowing who it was. Easy money for the heir hunters. The problem of course was who was going to act as personal representative to authorise the wind up and distribution of the estate. In the end, since no-one else looked like they were going to do it, I discussed it with some of the family and then did it, agreeing a fixed fee with the heir hunter solicitor to do the administration. My inheritance? - £218

My advice would be not to sign the commission agreement, especially if everyone else has. I'm sure any solicitors on here will say I was unwise to act as persona representative but it was a fairly simple estate and frankly, if I hadn't have done it, it would have all ended up going to the crown.

Interesting. Can I ask, what was involved in being the "personal representative" of the deceased? Was it just a case of being the person responsible for appointing the solicitor to administer the estate, or was there more to it than that?

[SteMiS]

Yesterday my wife and her two sisters started getting telephone calls from several “Heir Hunter” companies. Turns out that their cousin died intestate in April this year and his name appeared on the published BVD list yesterday, so they were very quick off the mark. A very sad event that none of the family were aware of and obviously didn’t even get to go to the funeral. Apart from the shock of the sad news and disappointment at not being made aware at the time an therefore attend the funeral, there is now a decision to be made about whether and which Heir Hunter firm to sign up with.

The case was referred to the BVD by his local council. Based on what we know, he lived in a Council house and is unlikely to have significant assets, although the value of the estate has not been disclosed at this point. The Heid hunters are quoting commission of between 6-15% plus expenses.

If I understand correctly, the first person to make a valid claim to the BVD gets to administer the estate and a claim can be made directly by the beneficiaries or their nominated representative (Eg one of the heir hunters).

Does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing and can give a view on whether it is best to “do if yourself” or to use one of the heir Hunter firms? If the latter, any advice on how to select the best firm?

Thanks

Yes, this has happened to me. I got a letter from an heir hunter and their commission was 25% + VAT (= 30%) !! When I rung my mother she said, yes it'll be your late father's cousin Ronnie. When I checked the bona vacantia web site there he was. So I didn't sign the letter.

Ronnie never married, had no children and wasn't particularly close to the family, dying in residential care. Turns out Ronnie had 15 cousins, including my late father. My interest, with my two siblings, was therefore 1/45th. Every other beneficiary signed the commission agreement despite everyone seemingly knowing who it was. Easy money for the heir hunters. The problem of course was who was going to act as personal representative to authorise the wind up and distribution of the estate. In the end, since no-one else looked like they were going to do it, I discussed it with some of the family and then did it, agreeing a fixed fee with the heir hunter solicitor to do the administration. My inheritance? - £218

My advice would be not to sign the commission agreement, especially if everyone else has. I'm sure any solicitors on here will say I was unwise to act as persona representative but it was a fairly simple estate and frankly, if I hadn't have done it, it would have all ended up going to the crown.

Interesting. Can I ask, what was involved in being the "personal representative" of the deceased? Was it just a case of being the person responsible for appointing the solicitor to administer the estate, or was there more to it than that?

It was a while ago but I don't recall it being particularly onerous. I agreed the appointment of the solicitor, the final statement of account and the distribution to the beneficiaries. As a caveat (and any actual solicitor on here can probably expand), I believe there's an element of personal liability to being the personal representative. If a creditor or a beneficiary appears that hasn't been satisfied, there could be a claim on the personal representative (although he can, at least attempt to, recover from the beneficiaries). In my case it was pretty straightforward so I was ok about taking that on.

[staffordian]

My mother was one of many beneficiaries of an intestacy about twenty years ago. Or would have been if she'd not died before it was resolved (the inheritance was not lost, of course, as it then went to my father as beneficiary of my mother's estate)

In this case, the lady who died was a widow who had never had children, the difference to the case here being that one or more distant relatives knew the person and (I believe) a solicitor was appointed by them so I don't think the Crown were involved.

The point I was going to make was that it took several years to resolve, simply because of the amount of investigation needed to ensure beyond reasonable doubt that all potential beneficiaries had been identified. One or two earlier generations had to be discovered, then all their offspring identified.*

The solicitor had some sort of insurance against this eventuality but before that could be used, many research hoops had to be jumped through.

*I received a summary of this research and it was very handy for my genealogy!

[teecee90]

It was a while ago but I don't recall it being particularly onerous. I agreed the appointment of the solicitor, the final statement of account and the distribution to the beneficiaries. As a caveat (and any actual solicitor on here can probably expand), I believe there's an element of personal liability to being the personal representative. If a creditor or a beneficiary appears that hasn't been satisfied, there could be a claim on the personal representative (although he can, at least attempt to, recover from the beneficiaries). In my case it was pretty straightforward so I was ok about taking that on.

Thanks

I guess the risk is also relative to the value of the estate. If, as I suspect in this case, the estate is relatively small, then the financial risk of having to find another 'portion' for redistribution in the event of the appearance of an unknown beneficiary, may not be worth worrying about.

As an update - my wife has submitted a claim to the BVD enclosing a relatively simple family tree. They have come back very quickly and just asked for a number of birth and marriage certificates of specific people in the tree, together with a couple of forms of ID. Ordinarily they require certified paper copies of certificates but are accepting PDF scans at this time. I've ordered the certificates from the General Register Office, but their website says that they are not working to usual timescales, so may be some time before they arrive. I've since contacted the County Council of the relevant registration district (Lincolnshire) and they are sending the certificates this week, so hopefully should arrive soon.

[SteMiS]

I've ordered the certificates from the General Register Office, but their website says that they are not working to usual timescales, so may be some time before they arrive.

Yes, I've currently got a genealogist doing some work for me and she says they are quoting 6-8 weeks !!

[teecee90]

An update

Family tree and certificates submitted to the Bona Vancatia department and the estate has now been turned over to my wife to manage and distribute to beneficiaries as personal representative. So far, everything has been relatively straights forward with just some fairly small bank balances claimed and received.

We have now come across a couple of not so straightforward issues:

1) There is a small guaranteed annuity in payment of about £114 per month which is due to remain in payment until 2022. Apparently their is no option to convert this to a lump sum. Does this mean that the estate cannot be finalised or distributed until 2022 when the final annuity payment has been received?

2) There is a small holding of 279 shares in Lloyds Banking Group (held through Equiniti), which are worth about £80 at the current SP. Apparently there is a countersignature fee of £34.50 and an admin fee of £45.00 for getting these shares signed over. Presumably there would also be a dealing fee to sell the shares, effectively making them worthless. So....what to do about these shares?

All comments and suggestions gratefully received.