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Who owns this?

including wills and probate
redsturgeon
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Who owns this?

#326107

Postby redsturgeon » July 14th, 2020, 4:52 pm

I bought a bike chain online via Halfords, click and collect. Paid for it with my credit card, £7.99 and was given a date to collect.

I received a text and phone cal this morning to tell me it had arrived.I drove to Halford to collect the item.

Usually they ask my surname, go in the back and get the item. Today the assistant asked for my order number. I retrieved the text on my phone and showed him the number. He typed this into his till, went into the back and returned with my chain.

He then asked for the credit card with which I had paid for the item, I told him that I did not have my wallet with me, just my phone so did not have the card.He then asked for ID, I told him I did not have any.

He then said he could not give me the item.

I asked for the manager, the manager came and asked for my address. I asked them why he wanted that. To prove who I was? I told them I would not give them my address and asked for MY bike chain. He saw sense and gave it to me. I thanked him and went on my way.

Several questions came to mind during this exchange.

1. Why was I not told in the phone call or via text that ID would be required?
2. Why have I picked up items before with no ID?
3. Is not the fact that I have the text from them on my phone that can only be accessed by my thumb print better ID than asking for my address?

Finally I thought, what if I had just picked up the chain from the counter, thanked them, and left with MY property?

Legally, surely with them having taken my money it was now mine?

Is that correct?

John

dealtn
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Re: Who owns this?

#326113

Postby dealtn » July 14th, 2020, 5:15 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I bought a bike chain online via Halfords, click and collect. Paid for it with my credit card, £7.99 and was given a date to collect.

I received a text and phone cal this morning to tell me it had arrived.I drove to Halford to collect the item.

Usually they ask my surname, go in the back and get the item. Today the assistant asked for my order number. I retrieved the text on my phone and showed him the number. He typed this into his till, went into the back and returned with my chain.

He then asked for the credit card with which I had paid for the item, I told him that I did not have my wallet with me, just my phone so did not have the card.He then asked for ID, I told him I did not have any.

He then said he could not give me the item.

I asked for the manager, the manager came and asked for my address. I asked them why he wanted that. To prove who I was? I told them I would not give them my address and asked for MY bike chain. He saw sense and gave it to me. I thanked him and went on my way.

Several questions came to mind during this exchange.

1. Why was I not told in the phone call or via text that ID would be required?
2. Why have I picked up items before with no ID?
3. Is not the fact that I have the text from them on my phone that can only be accessed by my thumb print better ID than asking for my address?

Finally I thought, what if I had just picked up the chain from the counter, thanked them, and left with MY property?

Legally, surely with them having taken my money it was now mine?

Is that correct?

John


Well I guess it depends on the contract which is made on the "click and collect" online order, not on the phone call or text (although it might have been a nice idea to be reminded on those of what your obligations/requirements might have been). Did you see what was asked of you then?

As for 2 I guess it might depend on if the policy has changed, or isn't strictly enforced.

For 3 probably, but there is no way to know that just because you can unlock your phone, and no other thumb can, that the order (and associated email) are yours. An email can be forwarded and accessed by anyone. Taken to its extreme I could have an email from Ferrari and forward to my mate to show off what I have just bought. He could show that email to the Ferrari garage. Of course possession of a credit card as a means of ID is no certainty that I am the legal owner either, I could have found/stolen it.

It's just the usual "its our policy" that you have encountered I suspect, and for the sake of a few pounds worth of bike chain a manager is happy to let you have it, even though it's not a 100% box-tick, head office won't know or care.

Dod101
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Re: Who owns this?

#326114

Postby Dod101 » July 14th, 2020, 5:16 pm

Surely the point was that they wanted to be sure that it was paid for with your money. I agree that the phone record would seem to be enough but asking for the card which was used for paying is not at all unusual, although often in my experience seldom asked for. My local B & Q would act exactly as Halfords did with you.

Dod

GoSeigen
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Re: Who owns this?

#326123

Postby GoSeigen » July 14th, 2020, 5:37 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I bought a bike chain online via Halfords, click and collect. Paid for it with my credit card, £7.99 and was given a date to collect.

I received a text and phone cal this morning to tell me it had arrived.I drove to Halford to collect the item.

Usually they ask my surname, go in the back and get the item. Today the assistant asked for my order number. I retrieved the text on my phone and showed him the number. He typed this into his till, went into the back and returned with my chain.

He then asked for the credit card with which I had paid for the item, I told him that I did not have my wallet with me, just my phone so did not have the card.He then asked for ID, I told him I did not have any.

He then said he could not give me the item.

I asked for the manager, the manager came and asked for my address. I asked them why he wanted that. To prove who I was? I told them I would not give them my address and asked for MY bike chain. He saw sense and gave it to me. I thanked him and went on my way.

Several questions came to mind during this exchange.

1. Why was I not told in the phone call or via text that ID would be required?
2. Why have I picked up items before with no ID?
3. Is not the fact that I have the text from them on my phone that can only be accessed by my thumb print better ID than asking for my address?

Finally I thought, what if I had just picked up the chain from the counter, thanked them, and left with MY property?

Legally, surely with them having taken my money it was now mine?

Is that correct?

John


Not really. To get a feel for the legal situation it may be useful to slightly change the situation. What if it wasn't you coming in to get the chain but a. your friend to whom you'd given the order number or b. the bloke who was standing next to you in the pub and saw the order number when you received the text.

Halford's position is that, although you have paid for the goods, they are still in possession of them and owe you a duty of care to ensure that you receive those goods. The employee is also responsible to the employer to make sure the employer doesn't suffer unnecessary loss.

In both the above cases, it should be clear that it's not easy for the Halfords employee to determine whether it's safe to release the goods to the person quoting the number. In case a, from your point of view you would be happy, because your friend would give you the chain. In case b, you'd be annoyed because when you came to collect the chain they'd say some one had already come to collect it. For the employee, it's very difficult to tell the difference between a and b. So I'm sure you'd agree it's reasonable for the employee to ask for ID.

So that's what's driving the need for ID. Now clearly there's a continuum between handing the goods to the first person who presents an order number and demanding three pieces of id including a passport! Ideally the company would set a sensible policy for their staff to follow. Given your experience at Halfords, there could be several explanations:
-they are so sloppy about policy that they don't really have one and it's entirely down to the discretion of staff members/branch management
-they have a policy but poor training
-their policy allows staff to use discretion so you get variation based on staff character and local conditions
-the employee you spoke to was having a bad day
etc.

So just to come back to the legal side. My understanding is that the question is not about who is the owner: clearly you are. It is a matter of possession: although you own the chain it remains in Halford's possession and they have a duty of care to you until you actually have taken possession of the goods yourself (ISTR the legal term is bailment--they are the bailee). That duty compels them to make sure they are not handing the chain over to someone else by mistake.


GS

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Re: Who owns this?

#326128

Postby redsturgeon » July 14th, 2020, 5:46 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
Not really. To get a feel for the legal situation it may be useful to slightly change the situation. What if it wasn't you coming in to get the chain but a. your friend to whom you'd given the order number or b. the bloke who was standing next to you in the pub and saw the order number when you received the text.

Halford's position is that, although you have paid for the goods, they are still in possession of them and owe you a duty of care to ensure that you receive those goods. The employee is also responsible to the employer to make sure the employer doesn't suffer unnecessary loss.

In both the above cases, it should be clear that it's not easy for the Halfords employee to determine whether it's safe to release the goods to the person quoting the number. In case a, from your point of view you would be happy, because your friend would give you the chain. In case b, you'd be annoyed because when you came to collect the chain they'd say some one had already come to collect it. For the employee, it's very difficult to tell the difference between a and b. So I'm sure you'd agree it's reasonable for the employee to ask for ID.



GS


But I was not merely quoting an order number. I was showing the assistant the actual text from them to me. One of the staff could easily have got the order and phoned my phone, as they had done that very morning, my phone would have rung...proving surely that I am in possession of the phone that was quoted at the time of the original order.

I kind of wish I had just picked up the chain and walked out with it, challenging them to arrest me.

John

Itsallaguess
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Re: Who owns this?

#326134

Postby Itsallaguess » July 14th, 2020, 5:50 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
In both the above cases, it should be clear that it's not easy for the Halfords employee to determine whether it's safe to release the goods to the person quoting the number.


Well they should be able to determine that it's safe to release the goods to the person quoting the number, because that's exactly what they say they'll do on their click-and-collect web-page -

Image

https://www.halfords.com/help-and-advice/customer-services/click-and-collect/

I've got to admit though, that I wouldn't find it unreasonable for them to also want to confirm my address, and wouldn't have had any issues with giving it.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Who owns this?

#326137

Postby AF62 » July 14th, 2020, 5:56 pm

redsturgeon wrote:But I was not merely quoting an order number. I was showing the assistant the actual text from them to me. One of the staff could easily have got the order and phoned my phone, as they had done that very morning, my phone would have rung...proving surely that I am in possession of the phone that was quoted at the time of the original order.


All that proves is that the phone you are holding is the phone they sent the text to - and actually doesn't even do that as you could have forwarded the text to someone else and set call forwarding - it doesn't prove you are you, the person who entered into the contract.

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Re: Who owns this?

#326140

Postby GoSeigen » July 14th, 2020, 6:01 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
But I was not merely quoting an order number. I was showing the assistant the actual text from them to me. One of the staff could easily have got the order and phoned my phone, as they had done that very morning, my phone would have rung...proving surely that I am in possession of the phone that was quoted at the time of the original order.

I kind of wish I had just picked up the chain and walked out with it, challenging them to arrest me.

John


As I said, the way the staff handle it could vary, perhaps even be irrational. But that's a different question to the legal one of ownership surely?

Also what seems obvious and logical to you may be difficult for someone less quickwitted, poorly trained, confused or incompetent. Or perhaps he was being justifiably cautious: how hard would it be to scam Halfords by person A ordering a bike, person B (accomplice) coming in with a copy of the text on their phone and receiving the goods, then person A arriving and asking for his bike and of course being able to prove he is person A, while B has long disappeared? What is Halfords supposed to do then?

GS

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Re: Who owns this?

#326149

Postby Gersemi » July 14th, 2020, 6:26 pm

AF62 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:But I was not merely quoting an order number. I was showing the assistant the actual text from them to me. One of the staff could easily have got the order and phoned my phone, as they had done that very morning, my phone would have rung...proving surely that I am in possession of the phone that was quoted at the time of the original order.


All that proves is that the phone you are holding is the phone they sent the text to - and actually doesn't even do that as you could have forwarded the text to someone else and set call forwarding - it doesn't prove you are you, the person who entered into the contract.


Well if you forward the text to someone who would then collect the item without your permission more fool you (particularly if you set up call forwarding to them). So the question is how easy is it for someone to intercept that text? They would then have to be close enough to the collection point to be worth going to it to collect something pretty specific. So not likely to be worth it for small value items. For a large value item like a bike it might be a different matter. The retailer should however be clear about what they will require in order for you to collect it.

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Re: Who owns this?

#326152

Postby AF62 » July 14th, 2020, 6:35 pm

Gersemi wrote:
AF62 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:But I was not merely quoting an order number. I was showing the assistant the actual text from them to me. One of the staff could easily have got the order and phoned my phone, as they had done that very morning, my phone would have rung...proving surely that I am in possession of the phone that was quoted at the time of the original order.


All that proves is that the phone you are holding is the phone they sent the text to - and actually doesn't even do that as you could have forwarded the text to someone else and set call forwarding - it doesn't prove you are you, the person who entered into the contract.


Well if you forward the text to someone who would then collect the item without your permission more fool you (particularly if you set up call forwarding to them). So the question is how easy is it for someone to intercept that text? They would then have to be close enough to the collection point to be worth going to it to collect something pretty specific. So not likely to be worth it for small value items. For a large value item like a bike it might be a different matter. The retailer should however be clear about what they will require in order for you to collect it.


Halfords do seem to be clear - as mentioned by Itsallaguess they ask you to bring a copy of the order confirmation, which isn't the text message telling you it is ready to collect.

As for it not being worth trying to defraud them for small items but it is for large, isn't it simpler to train the staff in a single system, rather than have the staff try to work out whether they are being scammed by the person trying to persuade them that they should trust them because of X, Y, or Z.

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Re: Who owns this?

#326180

Postby redsturgeon » July 14th, 2020, 7:52 pm

This is the complete text of the email they sent me. No mention of ID or credit card required. except if buying on finance.

CyclingMotoringTechnologyWorkshop & ToolsBaby & Child
YOUR ORDER IS READY TO COLLECT

Hi john,

Your order is now ready to collect.
Collect In Store
Order Number: 2203006337 Track Order
Halfords Winchester Store details
Address: Unit 1, Moorside Road, Winchester SO23 7RX

Shimano CN-HG40 6, 7 and 8 Speed 116 Link Bike Chain with Connecting Link Subtotal: £7.99
Qty: 1
Customer Information: For the safety of our customers and colleagues, extra measures have been put in place that may result in your click & collect or home delivery order taking longer than normal to be ready. We are doing all we can to ensure your delivery and collection is available on time.
If you're using our Free Bike Build Sevice, we'll contact you to confirm when your bike(s) will be ready for collection. We build your bike for you once it arrives in store. Your local store will call you to arrange a suitable collection date and time once the bike arrives with them.

Chosen to pay by finance? Please remember to bring this email with you when you come to collect your order. Your order QR code can be found in the Payment details box in this email. Please note when paying by finance, you must bring either your driving licence or passport to store when collection your goods. You will not be able to collect your purchase without your valid ID.
Our contact centre is extremely busy so please only call us to check on you order status when the expected collection date has passed. Thank you for your support.
Need a hand?
We're here to help! If you have any questions about your order then click here for our FAQs.
If you have made a home delivery order
Please allow extra time for deliveries to remote or non-mainland locations. To keep you up to date with the progress of your Halfords order we'll email you once your order has been dispatched and send you an invoice as proof of purchase.
If you've ordered more than one product:
These may be delivered by different couriers.
We'll send you an email as each part of your order is dispatched.
Track your order
You can track your item(s) here. You'll need your order number and email address.
Returns & Refunds
If you need to return your product(s) please take a look at our return policy here.
Your Halfords Team


The text they sent was:

Your Halford order number xxx is ready.

Please visit your Halfords store to collect it.


The phone call they made to me made no mention of ID or credit card required to collect.

John

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Re: Who owns this?

#328887

Postby GoSeigen » July 27th, 2020, 7:28 am

redsturgeon wrote: Chosen to pay by finance? Please remember to bring this email with you when you come to collect your order. Your order QR code can be found in the Payment details box in this email. Please note when paying by finance, you must bring either your driving licence or passport to store when collection your goods. You will not be able to collect your purchase without your valid ID.


Is there not a fairly simple explanation: the member of staff thought the requirement for ID was for all orders, not just those paid for on finance. Bit of training needed?


GS


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