leasehold documents

[jackdaww]

i hope this is the correct board .

my brother is selling his maisonette which has an extended leasehold.

the buyers solicitor wants documentary proof - fair enough .

the leaseholder seems to have passed the buck down a chain of third parties.

the ultimate party wants £350 for this info.

DAK please?

is this legal?

is it a racket?

why didnt he get the document when he paid (quite a lot) to extend the lease ?

what service is he getting for this £350 ?

if this sale falls through , will he have to pay the fee again?

would a freedom of information request be appropriate ?

many thanks

david

[Mike88]

Copies of leases are available from the Land Registry although I understand not all are available. You could try here:

https://www.gov.uk/search-property-info ... d-registry

[Mike4]

i hope this is the correct board .

my brother is selling his maisonette which has an extended leasehold.

the buyers solicitor wants documentary proof - fair enough .

the leaseholder seems to have passed the buck down a chain of third parties.

the ultimate party wants £350 for this info.

DAK please?

is this legal?

is it a racket?

why didnt he get the document when he paid (quite a lot) to extend the lease ?

what service is he getting for this £350 ?

if this sale falls through , will he have to pay the fee again?

would a freedom of information request be appropriate ?

many thanks

david

Did your brother buy it with the lease already extended? If so, his solicitor acting for him in the purchase will done this already and surely have given him a big sheaf of paperwork containing the evidence. Has your brother lost this perhaps?

If your bro did the lease extension himself, then again the correspondence from his solicitor will contain the evidence I'd have thought.

For the £350, your bro is getting the time it takes the freeholder to open his long term archives and find the requested documents, copy them and forward them to your bro. It is also intended to be an encouragement not to lose them again!

I'd say yes it is legal, but just a guess.

[Clitheroekid]

my brother is selling his maisonette which has an extended leasehold.

the buyers solicitor wants documentary proof - fair enough .

the leaseholder seems to have passed the buck down a chain of third parties.

the ultimate party wants £350 for this info.

DAK please?

is this legal?

is it a racket?

why didnt he get the document when he paid (quite a lot) to extend the lease ?

what service is he getting for this £350 ?

if this sale falls through , will he have to pay the fee again?

would a freedom of information request be appropriate ?

I suspect your brother has misunderstood the situation, and that the £350 has nothing at all to do with the lease extension.

When a lease is extended the new lease is registered at the Land Registry and that's that. Your brother's solicitor will have obtained a copy of the title register, a copy of the registered plan and a copy of the extended lease from LR for the princely sum of £9 in total, and will have passed the documents to the buyer's solicitor. That's all the `documentary proof' that's required regarding the extension.

However, when selling a flat / maisonette the buyer's solicitor will also want a lot of information about things like the service charge, management company accounts, any disputes with other leaseholders, insurance, etc, etc. The seller needs to obtain this information from the management company and/or freeholder. They will always make a charge for the work involved in providing the information, and some of the charges made by freehold investment companies are extortionate. A figure of £350 would not be untypical, so I strongly suspect this is what your brother is being asked to pay for.

[jackdaww]

many thanks for responses.

i have found also - not tried yet - the leasehold advisory service on 02078 322500 .

i still wonder if he will have to cough up AGAIN on a future sale attempt if this one falls through.

also whether it would be reasonable to demand the BUYER pays for these (extortionate ) charges , since its the buyer who needs the info , not the seller .

could just add it to the selling price .

[monabri]

The freeholder will have to fill in a "Leasehold Properties Enquiries" (LPE1) form which provides info to the buyer's solicitor on many aspects.

We've just filled in such a form as the owner of the flat above our rental is selling. We charged....zero, for completing the form. Management companies charge for their time.

Here's a link to the LPE1 form - highlighted download in pdf.


https://www.lease-advice.org/downloadable-form/forms/

[Clitheroekid]

i still wonder if he will have to cough up AGAIN on a future sale attempt if this one falls through.

No, provided another sale is agreed within a reasonable time, say 3 months, the information will still be accepted. But if it takes, say, 9 months to sell then it may well be necessary to renew the information.

also whether it would be reasonable to demand the BUYER pays for these (extortionate ) charges , since its the buyer who needs the info , not the seller

No, there’s a Conveyancing Protocol that effectively has to be followed in all residential transactions, and this imposes the cost of obtaining and providing leasehold information squarely on the seller.

And from bitter experience it’s a waste of time trying to negotiate a reduction in the often extortionate charges. The freehold investment companies have bought the freeholds with the specific objective of extorting money from the leaseholders. They are almost universally vile people and they take advantage of the fact that the seller is desperate for the information in case they lose the sale, and that they will ultimately pay up rather than argue.

[jackdaww]

i still wonder if he will have to cough up AGAIN on a future sale attempt if this one falls through.

No, provided another sale is agreed within a reasonable time, say 3 months, the information will still be accepted. But if it takes, say, 9 months to sell then it may well be necessary to renew the information.

also whether it would be reasonable to demand the BUYER pays for these (extortionate ) charges , since its the buyer who needs the info , not the seller

No, there’s a Conveyancing Protocol that effectively has to be followed in all residential transactions, and this imposes the cost of obtaining and providing leasehold information squarely on the seller.

And from bitter experience it’s a waste of time trying to negotiate a reduction in the often extortionate charges. The freehold investment companies have bought the freeholds with the specific objective of extorting money from the leaseholders. They are almost universally vile people and they take advantage of the fact that the seller is desperate for the information in case they lose the sale, and that they will ultimately pay up rather than argue.

====================

thanks again CC , my thoughts exactly.

so the answer to my original question -- is this a racket ? -- is a big yes !

its legal , so who designed it i wonder , and for whose benefit .

[SteelCamel]

The leaseholders do have some power - there's a "right to manage" which allows them to replace the management company, or even do it themselves. They also have the power to buy the freehold. But all this requires the leaseholders to act collectively, and costs time and money, so it mostly doesn't happen. The Government also set up the commonhold system to replace leasehold for flats - but there seems to be little interest. As you say, the current system suits the developers fine and they're not going to encourage changes.

[Clitheroekid]

The leaseholders ... also have the power to buy the freehold. But all this requires the leaseholders to act collectively, and costs time and money, so it mostly doesn't happen.

And for many leaseholders that power has now been effectively removed by that cretin Jenrick's latests manoeuvre to line the pockets of his developer chums.

It's now possible for the freeholders of many biocks of flats to add two storeys to the top of the building without the inconvenience of having to apply for planning permission - https://www.savills.co.uk/insight-and-o ... s-of-flats

For the owners of expensive penthouses this is a potential disaster. But the main effect of this absurd measure is, of course, to make the freehold very much more valuable, thereby providing a hefty windfall for freehold investment companies, who are probably the least deserving of such a windfall of anyone in the UK.

Sadly, it also means that tenants who have been ground down by exploitation to the point of finally getting their act together and starting the tortuous and expensive process of forcing the freeholder to sell them the freehold will suddenly have their plans disrupted. Their efforts and their money will all have been wasted, as the purchase price of the freehold will now have soared, probably beyond their reach.

I used to think that people who went on about Tory cronyism and corruption were just conspiracy theorists. I don't any more.

[Mike4]

Sadly, it also means that tenants who have been ground down by exploitation to the point of finally getting their act together and starting the tortuous and expensive process of forcing the freeholder to sell them the freehold will suddenly have their plans disrupted. Their efforts and their money will all have been wasted, as the purchase price of the freehold will now have soared, probably beyond their reach..

They do have an alternative course of action though - attempt to sell their flats to someone willing to buy a flat in a block blighted by plans for a year or two of noisy and disruptive building work immediately above and blocking up the car park and surrounding roads with builders' vehicles and deliveries.

I'm so happy I sold a flat last year in a block that will be a prime candidate for this. The freeholder was a greedy, heartless, grasping and avaricious solicitor out only to shaft the leaseholders the best he could all the time I owned it, and I'm certain he will be making detailed plans for two more floors right now.

BAD MISTAKE ever buying anything leasehold, in my personal opinion. As you say, freeholders are rarely nice people to do business with. Same applies to caravan site owners.