This is a purely hypothetical scenario though one I suspect may have occurred to somebody somewhere to do...
Company C employs employees E1, E2 etc.
Come lockdown and furlough X takes furlough for all the Es, but tells them that for the company to survive and thus their jobs they have to carry on working full time as before. All the Es are aware that they are under furlough but still working full time. All the Es understand this is to ensure they have jobs at all as its the only way X will survive.
This is presumably fraud - X takes the furlough but keeps everybody working.
Are all the Es also guilty of fraud, by aiding and abetting it / accessories to the fact.
This is as i say purely hypothetical so there are no "specifics" available... it was a chat about whether the Es were scot free if the farud was detected. I claim they cannot be free of any postential criominal prosecution. Other say they have no choice so they cant be held guilty.
cheers for any insights
didds
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aiding and abetting fraud... or not
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- Lemon Half
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Re: aiding and abetting fraud... or not
Not sure if the answer is precisely given in a previous topic on the subject (at DAK back in May) but you may wish to read this again (when you mentioned a non hypothetical situation ):
viewtopic.php?p=308040#p308040
viewtopic.php?p=308040#p308040
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: aiding and abetting fraud... or not
Criminal law isn't my area, but I'd have thought that the employees would probably have a defence of duress. In any case, I think the CPS would decide it wasn't in the public interest to prosecute them.
One case I did hear about a few weeks ago was where two similar companies in the same business just agreed to exchange workforces. A Ltd put its 20 employees on furlough, and claimed their wages from the government, as did B Ltd. However, employees on furlough are quite entitled to be employed elsewhere, so the 20 employees of A Ltd went to work for B Ltd and vice versa.
Of course they were only paid minimum wage in each case, but as that wage was in addition to 80% of their normal wage they were more than happy. Their employers were equally happy, as they were only having to pay `their' employees minimum wage, which was a big saving on their usual wage bill. And all apparently quite legal.
I hasten to add that this was all hearsay. I don't know whether it was true, and I've not bothered to try and work out the economics or legalities of it, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
One case I did hear about a few weeks ago was where two similar companies in the same business just agreed to exchange workforces. A Ltd put its 20 employees on furlough, and claimed their wages from the government, as did B Ltd. However, employees on furlough are quite entitled to be employed elsewhere, so the 20 employees of A Ltd went to work for B Ltd and vice versa.
Of course they were only paid minimum wage in each case, but as that wage was in addition to 80% of their normal wage they were more than happy. Their employers were equally happy, as they were only having to pay `their' employees minimum wage, which was a big saving on their usual wage bill. And all apparently quite legal.
I hasten to add that this was all hearsay. I don't know whether it was true, and I've not bothered to try and work out the economics or legalities of it, but I thought it was an interesting idea.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: aiding and abetting fraud... or not
didds wrote:This is a purely hypothetical scenario though one I suspect may have occurred to somebody somewhere to do...
didds
There are lots of folk in council departments and HMRC working flat out to track down such things at present. In a much more joined up way than is usual. There is a very high risk of getting caught.
regards, dspp
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: aiding and abetting fraud... or not
We had some staff furloughed briefly and it was a condition of the CJRS that positive confirmation was received from the employee that they agreed to be furloughed - if there was no record of the employee agreeing then perhaps claiming ignorance could be an option for the employees
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Re: aiding and abetting fraud... or not
PinkDalek wrote:Not sure if the answer is precisely given in a previous topic on the subject (at DAK back in May) but you may wish to read this again (when you mentioned a non hypothetical situation ):
viewtopic.php?p=308040#p308040
LOL! Id forgotten that! The discussion I had recently was hypothetcial because id forgotten Id heard that etc! LOL
that's obviously where I "got" it form I guess.
cheers!
didds
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Re: aiding and abetting fraud... or not
Clitheroekid wrote:One case I did hear about a few weeks ago was where two similar companies in the same business just agreed to exchange workforces. A Ltd put its 20 employees on furlough, and claimed their wages from the government, as did B Ltd. However, employees on furlough are quite entitled to be employed elsewhere, so the 20 employees of A Ltd went to work for B Ltd and vice versa.....
...And all apparently quite legal.
i've certainly heard of businesses taking furlough and indeed furloughing that workforce not because they needed to at the time but in order to bank the money for use after furlough is ended to help bankroll the staff during a perceived lean time over winter
again - presumably perfectly legal.
didds
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Re: aiding and abetting fraud... or not
Furloughed employees may be able to work for another employer, providing it does not breach their contractual obligations with their current employer.
Individuals should only work outside of the hours they would normally work in their usual job.
Taking on a weekend or evening job may not breach obligations if your contract stipulates a 9am to 5pm working day.
Not as discussed above.
T7
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