Will witnesses

[monabri]

I downloaded a will for a neighbour. I noticed that the 2 witnesses did not date their signatures. Is the will valid?

(The will text starts with " This is the last will and testament of X ...which I make on the date of yy May 2020) so there is a date on the "will".

The guy who passed was on morphine at the time as he died of Cancer and he died the next day (one day after the yy May). The witnesses signed to say that after having had the will read to him he appeared to thoroughly understand it and approve its contents (and thus his signature ( scrawl ) is valid).

[UncleEbenezer]

I've witnessed a will. Many years ago: if called upon to verify my signature, I'd be hard-pressed to distinguish it from a clone, perhaps by someone who's seen it elsewhere. And that's if I even outlive the person in question and am somewhere the executors can find me - no more than a 50/50 chance.

That kind of story must surely be pretty-much the norm for witnesses to a will. Which leads me to conclude it's a meaningless box-ticking exercise.

[tacpot12]

Part of the requirement for a valid will is that the witnesses must sign the will in the presence of the person making the will, they don't have to date it. See https://www.gov.uk/make-will/make-sure- ... l-is-legal

[Lootman]

I downloaded a will for a neighbour. I noticed that the 2 witnesses did not date their signatures. Is the will valid?

(The will text starts with " This is the last will and testament of X ...which I make on the date of yy May 2020) so there is a date on the "will".

The guy who passed was on morphine at the time as he died of Cancer and he died the next day (one day after the yy May). The witnesses signed to say that after having had the will read to him he appeared to thoroughly understand it and approve its contents (and thus his signature ( scrawl ) is valid).

Decades ago when I worked as a hospital manager, it was quite common for me to be asked to witness a "deathbed will". The standard procedure was to summon a doctor and ask about the medication the patient was on. If it was any form of opiate then I would not witness the will as I could not reasonably claim that the will writer was "of sound mind".

As for witnesses putting dates on such documents it does help to show that the witness was present at or around the date of the will signing. I once saw a will where the witnesses put a date that was the day before the date the will maker had put for his signature. Luckily I spotted it and the will was re-signed. That would have been a mess later on, otherwise.

PS: The witnesses should not be the will beneficiaries.

[Gersemi]

I've witnessed a will. Many years ago: if called upon to verify my signature, I'd be hard-pressed to distinguish it from a clone, perhaps by someone who's seen it elsewhere. And that's if I even outlive the person in question and am somewhere the executors can find me - no more than a 50/50 chance.

That kind of story must surely be pretty-much the norm for witnesses to a will. Which leads me to conclude it's a meaningless box-ticking exercise.

I suspect that witnesses to the will are usually only called upon to testify where the person dies fairly shortly after the will in question was made.

[Clitheroekid]

I downloaded a will for a neighbour. I noticed that the 2 witnesses did not date their signatures. Is the will valid?

The witnesses should never include the date of their signature.

The reason for this is that the law requires them both to be present at the time the testator signs the Will, and the Will contains a final clause (an `attestation clause') that is, in effect, a statement confirming that this happened. A typical clause is:

SIGNED by the said ALEXANDER BORIS DE WAFFLE JOHNSON the Testator as and for his last Will and Testament in the presence of us both present at the same time who at his request in his presence and in the presence of each other have hereunto subscribed our names as witnesses

The witnesses have therefore effectively stated that they signed the Will at the same time as the testator, so that the date in the main body of the Will is the only one required (though strangely enough there is no legal requirement for the Will to be dated at all).

[Lootman]

The witnesses have therefore effectively stated that they signed the Will at the same time as the testator

Surely the witnesses are not saying anything about when they signed the document. They are only stating that they personally witnessed the testator signing it.

So the witnesses could have witnessed the testator signing the will on, say, February 2nd but they didn't actually get around to signing it themselves until February 3rd.

[stewamax]

The witnesses have therefore effectively stated that they signed the Will at the same time as the testator, so that the date in the main body of the Will is the only one required (though strangely enough there is no legal requirement for the Will to be dated at all).

Hmmm....doesn't this then raise the legal gotcha of which of several Wills is the latest? In each Will I revoke previous Wills, but if there is more than one how are they sequenced?

[Clitheroekid]

The witnesses have therefore effectively stated that they signed the Will at the same time as the testator, so that the date in the main body of the Will is the only one required (though strangely enough there is no legal requirement for the Will to be dated at all).

Hmmm....doesn't this then raise the legal gotcha of which of several Wills is the latest? In each Will I revoke previous Wills, but if there is more than one how are they sequenced?

This is precisely why professionally made Wills invariably are dated. I was merely commenting that there's no legal requirement for a Will to be dated, not recommending such a practice!

[Gengulphus]

The witnesses have therefore effectively stated that they signed the Will at the same time as the testator

Surely the witnesses are not saying anything about when they signed the document. They are only stating that they personally witnessed the testator signing it.

So the witnesses could have witnessed the testator signing the will on, say, February 2nd but they didn't actually get around to signing it themselves until February 3rd.

If the dates are different, it opens up all sorts of possible lines of questioning for someone hoping to challenge the will. E.g. did the witnesses keep the will the testator signed in their sight all the time from February 2nd to February 3rd? If not, how do they know the document they signed as witnesses is the same one they saw the testator sign? Why did they delay signing it themselves? - surely that just added to the inconvenience of doing the witnessing? Etc, etc, etc...

Those lines of questioning won't necessarily succeed in invalidating the will, but they do make it easier for a challenger to raise doubts - especially if the witness only dimly remembers the occasion and doesn't for instance remember the detail that the testator signed the will at 11:59 pm and they appended their details and signature at 00:01 am the following day... ;-)

Gengulphus