Employment right from day one?

[redsturgeon]

My daughter's best friend has started a job that she has now been doing for just three weeks. Unfortunately the signs are not looking good for her already. It is a small family run law firm where the three partners are all related. One of them has had to go abroad to look after a sick relative but is still managing work from there. All three partners give work to my daughter's friend.

The other day she was called by the partner abroad and shouted at over the phone for "making a mistake" in including the "wrong" address on a document. She was told to speak to the client immediately to apologise and put it right. She phoned the client and he confirmed that she had actually used the correct address. She emailed this information to the partner.

The partner was not happy to be shown up and has since been stipulating very stringent rules for DF including always contacting her before taking any break from work for lunch etc...a rule that is not stipulated by the other two partners.

This sounds like a bullying situation in the making to me and my advice would be for DF to get out but at the moment jobs are hard to come by.

My question is, at what stage in employment does the employee gain employment rights, is it from day one or can the employee be terminated without cause up to six months?

John

[dspp]

My question is, at what stage in employment does the employee gain employment rights, is it from day one or can the employee be terminated without cause up to six months?

I always thought it was 2 years for paying someone off without reason, but I'm happy to be corrected.

...that doesn't mean she doesn't have any rights though (particularly when it come to bullying). This sounds like a pretty poor situation for her.

my understanding is the same, no cause termination until 2-years.

regards, dspp

[mike]

My question is, at what stage in employment does the employee gain employment rights, is it from day one or can the employee be terminated without cause up to six months?

I always thought it was 2 years for paying someone off without reason, but I'm happy to be corrected.

...that doesn't mean she doesn't have any rights though (particularly when it come to bullying). This sounds like a pretty poor situation for her.

my understanding is the same, no cause termination until 2-years.

regards, dspp

There are some specified exceptions to this 2 year rule.

I don't think you can be dismissed within the 2 years
- for activities connected to a Trade Union
- Pregnancy (and possibly other discrimination related issues)
- Health & Safety matters

The first two don't seem relevant here, but the third may.

I retired a bit back, so may not be up-to-date. But don't feel you have no avenues based on the 2 year rule without more information.

[vrdiver]

Obvious, but if she hasn't already, she should start to log any bullying behaviour/actions. Keeping a log may amount to nothing, but if she needs to back up any complaint later, it will be handy.

Hopefully, this will sort itself out with a bit of time, but in any case it will teach her valuable people-management skills, even if only of the "don't do it like this" type

VRD

[redsturgeon]

Obvious, but if she hasn't already, she should start to log any bullying behaviour/actions. Keeping a log may amount to nothing, but if she needs to back up any complaint later, it will be handy.

Hopefully, this will sort itself out with a bit of time, but in any case it will teach her valuable people-management skills, even if only of the "don't do it like this" type

VRD

Yes we are trying to frame it in those "useful lesson" terms.

It must be hard when you work hard for three years for a law degree, get a decent 2:1 from a Russell group Uni, go £50k into debt, apply for jobs for 6 months to finally find something that pays the minimum wage and then find that bullying is rife from day one.

John

[gryffron]

Quite a few protections apply from day one.

Comprehensive list here

Sadly, I'm not sure much of it helps. Although breaks are a "right" and cannot be withheld.

Practical advice: Perhaps discuss the issue with the friendliest partner?

Gryff

[Mike4]

Hopefully, this will sort itself out with a bit of time, but in any case it will teach her valuable people-management skills, even if only of the "don't do it like this" type

VRD

Seconded. Very early in my early working years I decided an important skill for any employee to consciously develop, was what I termed "Managing your manager".

[Dod101]

I think she should under no circumstances acquiesce to bullying. If there is a staff partner she should talk to her/him. I think talking to the 'friendliest' partner will get her nowhere or should get her nowhere because no partner ought to be seen to be taking sides against another. Often bullies will back down if there is a reaction and if this partner is habitually like that the firm may have as much difficulty in recruitment as she has in finding a job in which case the other partners will not want to lose her.

If there is no staff partner then she ought to talk to the one who interviewed her. If none of that gets her anywhere then obviously start looking for another job.

And yes, managing your manager is a useful skill.

I should have added, let it blow over this time; maybe the partner was just having a bad day, but if it happens again then take action.

Dod

[AsleepInYorkshire]

My daughter's best friend has started a job that she has now been doing for just three weeks. Unfortunately the signs are not looking good for her already. It is a small family run law firm where the three partners are all related. One of them has had to go abroad to look after a sick relative but is still managing work from there. All three partners give work to my daughter's friend.

The other day she was called by the partner abroad and shouted at over the phone for "making a mistake" in including the "wrong" address on a document. She was told to speak to the client immediately to apologise and put it right. She phoned the client and he confirmed that she had actually used the correct address. She emailed this information to the partner.

The partner was not happy to be shown up and has since been stipulating very stringent rules for DF including always contacting her before taking any break from work for lunch etc...a rule that is not stipulated by the other two partners.

This sounds like a bullying situation in the making to me and my advice would be for DF to get out but at the moment jobs are hard to come by.

My question is, at what stage in employment does the employee gain employment rights, is it from day one or can the employee be terminated without cause up to six months?

John

I hate bullies. And this seems even worse. Someone a lot older with a lot more life skills demeaning a younger person. Abhorrent in every respect.

I've faced many bullies in my line of work. They seem common in construction.

I read something the other day. I can't recall it verbatim, but I'll convey the message.

Sometimes winners quit. So hear me out. Sometimes the writing is already on the wall. So quitting can often be the winning approach.

I was in a toxic environment last year. I stayed way too long. Unless this was a one off and the other person was just having a bad day or maybe even has some mental health issues which may have symptoms of "aggression" I'd suggest looking at the winning answer. Stand up to him/her. Say no to that behaviour. Raise a grievance.

And I'm more than aware of the cost of doing so. I've not had an income for six months now. I'd do it again tomorrow though.

So you've made enemies. Good that means you've stood up for yourself - often but incorrectly attributed to Winston Churchill.

I know how she feels today. I hope she has the courage and the conviction to move forward constructively in the situation and challenge this behaviour.

AiY

[Chrysalis]

Unfortunately the only effective strategy I’ve seen used against bullies is to remove yourself from their influence.
But it is always best to have another job lined up.

So I’d suggest she keeps her nose clean, does the job to the best of her ability, extracts whatever work and life experience is to be had, while looking hard for a better opportunity.

This person has either had a bad day, and the relationship will be repairable over time, or they are a serial offender, in which case it’s likely their behaviour is known to the other partners and she won’t be thanked for bringing it to their attention.

Sorry if that seems defeatist, but the chances of a young new recruit changing a workplace culture or powerful figure who is known to be a bully, are fairly small.

[supremetwo]

The partner was not happy to be shown up and has since been stipulating very stringent rules for DF including always contacting her before taking any break from work for lunch etc...a rule that is not stipulated by the other two partners.

Does this involve working from home?

If so, a sign-off process for breaks is not at all uncommon and I would not consider that aspect to be stringent.

[redsturgeon]

The partner was not happy to be shown up and has since been stipulating very stringent rules for DF including always contacting her before taking any break from work for lunch etc...a rule that is not stipulated by the other two partners.

Does this involve working from home?

If so, a sign-off process for breaks is not at all uncommon and I would not consider that aspect to be stringent.

No, the work is all office based with two of the partners in attendance.

John

[Mike4]

I think she should under no circumstances acquiesce to bullying. If there is a staff partner she should talk to her/him. I think talking to the 'friendliest' partner will get her nowhere or should get her nowhere because no partner ought to be seen to be taking sides against another. Often bullies will back down if there is a reaction and if this partner is habitually like that the firm may have as much difficulty in recruitment as she has in finding a job in which case the other partners will not want to lose her.

I think Dod could be right here. It might explain why the job was available when DF has been job seeking without success for six months, i.e. the previous incumbent cut and ran due to the bullying having failed to deal with it.

So to expand on the point, it might be worth DF discreetly asking around other employees at the firm if there has been a string of resignations from this position, and knowing the history might colour her decisions on what action to take.

[Dod101]

The partner was not happy to be shown up and has since been stipulating very stringent rules for DF including always contacting her before taking any break from work for lunch etc...a rule that is not stipulated by the other two partners.

Does this involve working from home?

If so, a sign-off process for breaks is not at all uncommon and I would not consider that aspect to be stringent.

Something I had not considered. Good point.

Dod

[Wuffle]

I would just bail.
Even when a family firm is good, you will always be a second class citizen.
Nominal commitment thus far, it can be dumped in between the cracks on a CV still.
Professionally, trajectory is everything and this clearly smells wrong.
Unless there is going to be an cascade of financial repercussions (and there generally aren't for nice, respectable law grads) get gone. It is a big world with many paths.

W.

[Bobwood]

My son in law works for a global law firm, the opposite of a family one, and I've never seen bullying like it, and he works in employment law!

And working from home has only made it worse; far easier to bully people remotely than face to face.

[UncleEbenezer]

My son in law works for a global law firm, the opposite of a family one, and I've never seen bullying like it, and he works in employment law!

And working from home has only made it worse; far easier to bully people remotely than face to face.

There's a certain kind of sink-or-swim workplace and environment where you either bully or go under. I should imagine global law firms must be pretty high in the ranks of such places.

Sometimes gets distorted publicity. A female victim fights back, and characterises it as a macho lads environment whose bullying culture discriminates against women who don't join their activities. That some women are amongst the worst offenders (notably in the public sector - my ex saw a lot of it whilst working in NHS administration) doesn't fit the narrative and gets ignored - unless perhaps the present Home Secretary's behaviour can move the media spotlight onto finding a pattern there.

Might be worth looking for whether there have been such cases in that workplace, especially if they went so far as a formal dispute. How similar are they?