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Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
When I was the down stairs occupant of a maisonette some of the noises that most penetrated through the floor from above was the cascade of urine into the toilet bowl, the sliding of the wardrobe doors, the clang and boing of the lazi-boy armchair recliner changing position, the slide of wet buttocks across the bath. Apparently my sneezes carried to upstairs as did my ukulele playing.
Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
Clitheroekid wrote:Problems like this are very common and notoriously difficult to resolve. The main difficulty is that the perception of noise is highly subjective - what's of no consequence to one person can be intolerable to someone else.
But this is often exacerbated by the personalities of the people concerned. In this case it sounds like the neighbour is just a cantankerous git who could, as the saying goes, pick a fight in an empty room.
In such cases it's probably impossible for your daughter to modify her behaviour , which is probably perfectly reasonable by any objective standard, so as to satisfy his unreasonable demands.
But it's probably worth her and c just on the off-chance that they may be able to resolve matters peacefully. This is simply because no matter how unlikely it is that such a meeting would succeed the alternative of living in a state of civil war is so unpleasant that every opportunity to avoid it has to be tried.
Another, more formal, option would be mediation. This has a surprisingly high success rate, though of course it does require both parties to want a solution, which may not be the case here.
If attempts at reconciliation fail then the legal remedies are limited. Most leases contain clauses requiring the tenants to behave in a way that won't upset other tenants, so if there is such a clause it may be worth asking the landlord / manco to enforce the covenant against him. Ultimately, a serious and ongoing breach of covenant could theoretically lead to his lease being forfeited, so that he would be evicted.
His behaviour may also amount to harassment, and this is both a criminal offence and a civil wrong so that he can be sued for an injunction and/or damages under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. Obviously, this is a fairly drastic remedy, but the mere threat of action, coming from a solicitor, can sometimes do the trick.
Finally, though it's probably not a realistic option, your daughter may have a remedy against the seller of the flat. It seems likely that they would have been subjected to similar behaviour, and this should have been disclosed when answering the following questions on the TA6 form, which read:
2.1 Have there been any disputes or complaints regarding this property or a property nearby? If Yes, please give details.
2.2 Is the seller aware of anything which might lead to a dispute about the property or a property nearby? If Yes, please give details.
3.1 Have any notices or correspondence been received or sent (e.g. from or to a neighbour, council or government department), or any negotiations or discussions taken place, which affect the property or a property nearby? If Yes, please give details.
In particular, as he's sent emails to your daughter he would probably have sent them to the seller, and these should have been disclosed by the seller. If the seller untruthfully answered `No' to these questions then your daughter may have a claim against them for misrepresentation. Although the normal remedy is damages (financial compensation) it's sometimes possible to claim `rescission' of the contract, i.e. cancel the deal entirely. However, this would obviously be a drastic course of action, and would only be considered as an absolute last resort if the situation became intolerable.
It certainly shows the truth in the old saying that `one man's ceiling is another man's floor'.
The neighbour (TS) is a musician/sound recorder. Who appears to be highly strung.
In respect of TA6 form i quote.
2.1 "I have previously received complaints from the downstairs neighbour about noise but he has since conceded that i am not culpable"
2.2 "I also lodged a complaint against my downstairs neighbour in response to his, which is now resolved"
The previous owner stopped communicating with (TS) for obvious reasons.
3.1 No known communication.
His behaviour may also amount to harassment. It clearly does amount to harassment as it has caused stress anxiety and detracted from the new owners enjoyment of their property. TS has admitted in an E-mail to constantly banging his flat door causing some alarm.
My Daughters partner, twice walked and talked with the neighbour in an attempt to reach a mutual understanding to no avail.
Under pressure they paid £200 towards a Sound Assessment, instructed by TS in conjunction with Tenants Association, which obviously said that additional soundproofing would reduce noise.
Apologies for incoherent replies. Many thanks to all contributors, all have been constructive and helpful.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
Hi llynaj,
I'm guessing if the floors are wooden that this is an older home that has been converted into flats?
There are, in my humble opinion several ways to look at this problem. One of which is to suggest that the complainant is as mad as a box of frogs and has nothing better to do that write emails and harass your daughter and partner. However, it could be much more simple than that. It could be that the gentleman actually has a valid point. It may be he's not able to convey that message too well. That shouldn't be a reason to believe he's over-reacting.
Sound transmission in buildings is difficult to understand. I've worked in construction for 41 years now. Over that time the regulations regarding "sound proofing" new buildings has improved dramatically.
Sound doesn't just travel in a straight line. It goes round corners to. Imagine a glass of water is dropped on a floor. The water will flow through the gaps. In the same way sound will travel through both "gaps" and the structure itself. One of the largest issues in reducing noise transmission between dwellings and apartments is something called "flanking sound". So if you imagine, for example, that your daughter goes to the expense of putting carpets in her apartment with a decent depth of underlay this will definitely reduce sound transmission. But sound will still "flank" where the timber joists and floor meet the masonry. I have seen products that are installed during conversion to deal with flanking sound at the perimeter of timber floors. I am not up to speed on this type of product though. Most of my career has been in new build, not conversion.
You should also look for "weak" points in the structure. For example do any service pipes travel between the two apartment? If they are not "sealed" they will create "flanking". In addition to "flanking" transmission direct impact sound can often be caused by loose timber floorboards. Screwing any loose boards down will reduce "impact" sound. In addition if there are any service traps in the floor these should be secured with noggins and screwed in place.
Finally and touching on what I spoke about at the beginning of my post, the gentleman downstairs may be a little terse and objectionable. However, you or your daughter or both of you may wish to hold out an olive branch and discuss this with him. There is also an opportunity to consider that he can also be part of any solution as one (albeit rather radical) alternative is to insulate the floor from underneath. Again this isn't just slapping a little insulation between joists. Flanking issues would have to be dealt with and direct impact transmission from loose floor boards would still need to be carried out.
As I've previously stated I think the previous owner should have made it clear that they had had complaints from the apartment below. There may be recourse accordingly. I'm not a legal type though. I just stick to bricks and mortar.
I hope there's something in there which you find useful or helpful.
AiY
I'm guessing if the floors are wooden that this is an older home that has been converted into flats?
There are, in my humble opinion several ways to look at this problem. One of which is to suggest that the complainant is as mad as a box of frogs and has nothing better to do that write emails and harass your daughter and partner. However, it could be much more simple than that. It could be that the gentleman actually has a valid point. It may be he's not able to convey that message too well. That shouldn't be a reason to believe he's over-reacting.
Sound transmission in buildings is difficult to understand. I've worked in construction for 41 years now. Over that time the regulations regarding "sound proofing" new buildings has improved dramatically.
Sound doesn't just travel in a straight line. It goes round corners to. Imagine a glass of water is dropped on a floor. The water will flow through the gaps. In the same way sound will travel through both "gaps" and the structure itself. One of the largest issues in reducing noise transmission between dwellings and apartments is something called "flanking sound". So if you imagine, for example, that your daughter goes to the expense of putting carpets in her apartment with a decent depth of underlay this will definitely reduce sound transmission. But sound will still "flank" where the timber joists and floor meet the masonry. I have seen products that are installed during conversion to deal with flanking sound at the perimeter of timber floors. I am not up to speed on this type of product though. Most of my career has been in new build, not conversion.
You should also look for "weak" points in the structure. For example do any service pipes travel between the two apartment? If they are not "sealed" they will create "flanking". In addition to "flanking" transmission direct impact sound can often be caused by loose timber floorboards. Screwing any loose boards down will reduce "impact" sound. In addition if there are any service traps in the floor these should be secured with noggins and screwed in place.
Finally and touching on what I spoke about at the beginning of my post, the gentleman downstairs may be a little terse and objectionable. However, you or your daughter or both of you may wish to hold out an olive branch and discuss this with him. There is also an opportunity to consider that he can also be part of any solution as one (albeit rather radical) alternative is to insulate the floor from underneath. Again this isn't just slapping a little insulation between joists. Flanking issues would have to be dealt with and direct impact transmission from loose floor boards would still need to be carried out.
As I've previously stated I think the previous owner should have made it clear that they had had complaints from the apartment below. There may be recourse accordingly. I'm not a legal type though. I just stick to bricks and mortar.
I hope there's something in there which you find useful or helpful.
AiY
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
llynaj wrote:
The floors are wooden but she has put rugs down in all the rooms.
Who should pay for any soundproofing?
I think to advise constructively any further we need a whole lot more disclosure. Some of it already requested. Things like the type of construction, purpose built flats or a converted big old house, type of floor construction, the exact nature of the noise this chap finds unacceptable.
I'd be wary of them paying to have soundproofing work done as I suspect this might as much a 'control' issue the chap downstairs has, and them paying for insulation might give him a psychological 'pay off' leading to him saying he can still hear them and that more work is required (at their expense). Beware!
I could be a mile wide of the mark though, given your latest post saying he is a recording musician. Could it be that he is actually trying to carry out his occupation inside his flat and the slightest noise spoils a recording? If this is the case I'd suggest he has chosen a supremely unsuitable building to record in, and this ought to be their line of defence. Pointless trying to sound-insulate to the degree necessary for music recording.
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
llynaj wrote:Under pressure they paid £200 towards a Sound Assessment, instructed by TS in conjunction with Tenants Association, which obviously said that additional soundproofing would reduce noise.
This is surprising ... were the Tenants Association not aware of his "five year 'battle'" with the previous owner? Which was apparently "resolved" according to the TA6?!? Have they talked to the other tenants about it?
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
In the OP's situation, I would have an expert advise me on the levels of insulation between the floors and ascertain whether there are any easy solutions. Doing so, might also give some guidance as to whether the insulation was considered adequate/normal for the type of property. Also, if matters deteriorate further, it would help demonstrate that the complaint had been taken seriously, and an attempt made to resolve the situation (by the flat owner below).
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
Many years ago when I lived in Plymouth a group of friends had an upstairs flat.
Downstairs was Old Man Hoskins, who must have spent his entire day waiting for them to walk across the room so he could bang on the ceiling with his stick and shout 'STUDENTS'! GET A JOB!'
He regularly called the police out, who obviously couldn't do much as my friends were doing nothing beyond moving around, sitting down etc. No wild parties or loud music.
Sounds like a similar case - some miserable old obsessive, who probably writes lots of angry letters to the local press about this, that and t'other
When living in a flat one has to accept some noise - it goes with the territory. I have been on the other side of this sort of thing. My last place was a Victorian conversion with poor sound insulation but I never had any problems with 'upstairs' until the last year I was there, when a family with three young lads moved in. The noise was appalling, it sounded like they were playing football up there, or chasing each other around. They didn't appear to have a 'bedtime' either..it went on until midnight sometimes and there was no escape.
I complained several times and I was listened to, as I'd not made a habit of complaining about minor noise from previous residents
Thankfully they were moved on eventually but it really took over my life. I used to pray they'd be away for the night, but they'd usually come crashing in at 11pm shouting, with absolutely no thought for the other residents.
Downstairs was Old Man Hoskins, who must have spent his entire day waiting for them to walk across the room so he could bang on the ceiling with his stick and shout 'STUDENTS'! GET A JOB!'
He regularly called the police out, who obviously couldn't do much as my friends were doing nothing beyond moving around, sitting down etc. No wild parties or loud music.
Sounds like a similar case - some miserable old obsessive, who probably writes lots of angry letters to the local press about this, that and t'other
When living in a flat one has to accept some noise - it goes with the territory. I have been on the other side of this sort of thing. My last place was a Victorian conversion with poor sound insulation but I never had any problems with 'upstairs' until the last year I was there, when a family with three young lads moved in. The noise was appalling, it sounded like they were playing football up there, or chasing each other around. They didn't appear to have a 'bedtime' either..it went on until midnight sometimes and there was no escape.
I complained several times and I was listened to, as I'd not made a habit of complaining about minor noise from previous residents
Thankfully they were moved on eventually but it really took over my life. I used to pray they'd be away for the night, but they'd usually come crashing in at 11pm shouting, with absolutely no thought for the other residents.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
JohnB wrote:The "5 year battle with previous owner" suggests he's a troublemaker.
Or bully.
GS
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
GoSeigen wrote:JohnB wrote:The "5 year battle with previous owner" suggests he's a troublemaker.
Or bully.
GS
I would suggest cover their backs so that they can show they have done everything they can to minimise noise and enhance sound insulation, then be prepared sue or counter-sue him for harassment. Maybe seek advice from CAB or the council if they feel he is being unreasonable.
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
UncleEbenezer wrote:[
Carpet in the kitchen and bathroom too? Not impossible, but unusual!
I agree it's unusual these days but we've gone for it but there's only us two adult, so not too many accidents and we still have quite a few spares stashed away. Rather than carpet though, we went for industrial, well office quality carpet tiles and they've been brilliant. There's no noticeable signs of wear, even after several years and they still look decent. We went for a medium brown which is probably the most practical choice! I wouldn't have laminate, even in a house but that's just a personal preference of course.
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
kempiejon wrote:When I was the down stairs occupant of a maisonette some of the noises that most penetrated through the floor from above was the cascade of urine into the toilet bowl, the sliding of the wardrobe doors, the clang and boing of the lazi-boy armchair recliner changing position, the slide of wet buttocks across the bath. Apparently my sneezes carried to upstairs as did my ukulele playing.
Another facet of British building/conversion standards.
I've lived in flats in four European countries. Whilst quality is varied, only in Blighty has it ever been *that* bad.
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
UncleEbenezer wrote:kempiejon wrote:When I was the down stairs occupant of a maisonette some of the noises that most penetrated through the floor from above was the cascade of urine into the toilet bowl, the sliding of the wardrobe doors, the clang and boing of the lazi-boy armchair recliner changing position, the slide of wet buttocks across the bath. Apparently my sneezes carried to upstairs as did my ukulele playing.
Another facet of British building/conversion standards.
I've lived in flats in four European countries. Whilst quality is varied, only in Blighty has it ever been *that* bad.
This illustrates well the psychological dimension of noise. When the noises described above transmit within a big 'ol single family house they are not perceived as a problem. Divide the same building into two flats and suddenly the same noise transmission is suddenly unacceptable.
This degree of noise transmission rarely happens in purpose-built flats in my experience as they are built with high mass concrete floors which insulate noise very well. My bet is the OP's flat is in a converted house with relatively lightweight wooden joists and floorboards, although we are still waiting for the OP to clarify the point. The best we have so far is "the floors are wooden", which could mean laminate or engineered wood laid on a concrete construction.
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
To be clear the regulations for sound transmission between rooms have changed over the years. If the works were done recently then modern day regulations will work as a performance specification. In other words the regulations detail the level of sound acceptable between room and also dwellings. This is Part E of the building regulations.
It is critical though to understand that the property will only have had to meet the requirements at the time it was converted/built. The standards are exacting and can be translated quite easily.
A sound assessment engineer will have more detailed knowledge of this information.
AiY
It is critical though to understand that the property will only have had to meet the requirements at the time it was converted/built. The standards are exacting and can be translated quite easily.
A sound assessment engineer will have more detailed knowledge of this information.
AiY
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
richfool wrote:It is also what's between the floors that matters.
In the case of this neighbour, it's what is between the ears that matters
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
richfool wrote:It is also what's between the floors that matters.
Or more accurately, what's between the floor and the ceiling.
Having spent my early career working for Industrial Acoustics (IAC https://www.iacacoustics.global/) designing sound insulation, I seem to have picked up the idea that there is nothing better than large quantities of mass for insulating really well against low frequency sound transmission. I very much doubt the science has changed in the last 50 years but I'm entirely happy to accept it has if anyone here knows better.
This is why solid concrete floors (or even hollow concrete beams) massively out-perform any sort of stuffing shoved between the joists, no matter how expensive it is, and is why I keep asking the OP what sort of construction the building is.
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
Mike4 wrote:richfool wrote:It is also what's between the floors that matters.
Or more accurately, what's between the floor and the ceiling.
Having spent my early career working for Industrial Acoustics (IAC https://www.iacacoustics.global/) designing sound insulation, I seem to have picked up the idea that there is nothing better than large quantities of mass for insulating really well against low frequency sound transmission. I very much doubt the science has changed in the last 50 years but I'm entirely happy to accept it has if anyone here knows better.
This is why solid concrete floors (or even hollow concrete beams) massively out-perform any sort of stuffing shoved between the joists, no matter how expensive it is, and is why I keep asking the OP what sort of construction the building is.
Insulation has evolved. Once upon a time quilt insulation was designed for thermal use. However, today quilt insulation comes in various guises. Sound deadening quilts can achieve Building Regulation Part E requirements for sound insulation between dividing partition rooms. I don't know if that is the same between dividing floors/ceilings.
I agree concrete will usually perform better per £/m2 than timber and various forms of insulation though. However, I would guess (and know I will be proved wrong accordingly) that concrete can if not installed correctly cause huge issues with sound transmission.
I hope the OP does comes forward with some additional information and perhaps we can start to offer the help needed.
AiY
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
Mike4 wrote:richfool wrote:It is also what's between the floors that matters.
Or more accurately, what's between the floor and the ceiling.
My expression and context was in terms of floors* of the building.
*Floors, as in first floor, second floor etc.
Yes, agreed that embraces the space between one persons ceiling and the person above's floor.
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Re: Noise Complaint from Downstairs neighbour
richfool wrote:Mike4 wrote:richfool wrote:It is also what's between the floors that matters.
Or more accurately, what's between the floor and the ceiling.
My expression and context was in terms of floors* of the building.
*Floors, as in first floor, second floor etc.
Yes, agreed that embraces the space between one persons ceiling and the person above's floor.
Is there a flaw in your premises there?
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