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Removal of concrete boundary posts

including wills and probate
woodles
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Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393384

Postby woodles » March 7th, 2021, 4:46 pm

The boundary between my property and my neighbours is marked by concrete boundary posts which have been there since the houses were built.
My neighbour wants to remove them but I'd prefer to keep them so it is clear where the boundary lies. Can he remove them without my permission?

I know that the issue of boundaries iS notorious grey area from a legal point of view but I'd welcome any advice.
TIA

dealtn
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393392

Postby dealtn » March 7th, 2021, 5:11 pm

woodles wrote:The boundary between my property and my neighbours is marked by concrete boundary posts which have been there since the houses were built.
My neighbour wants to remove them but I'd prefer to keep them so it is clear where the boundary lies. Can he remove them without my permission?

I know that the issue of boundaries iS notorious grey area from a legal point of view but I'd welcome any advice.
TIA


You don't usually have any requirement to mark, or fence a boundary, just to know where it is and respect it.

However have you checked your deeds? There may be covenants or obligations specified within, and who is responsible, and for what.

chas49
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393396

Postby chas49 » March 7th, 2021, 5:17 pm

woodles wrote:The boundary between my property and my neighbours is marked by concrete boundary posts which have been there since the houses were built.
My neighbour wants to remove them but I'd prefer to keep them so it is clear where the boundary lies. Can he remove them without my permission?

I know that the issue of boundaries iS notorious grey area from a legal point of view but I'd welcome any advice.
TIA


Who owns the posts? Are they on your land or his? If they're on your land (assuming you own the land), he can't remove them. The position of the posts isn't necessarily definitive of where the boundary actually is.

woodles
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393400

Postby woodles » March 7th, 2021, 5:38 pm

Thanks for the responses, the problem is that I don’t trust my neighbour to respect the boundary.

I’ve been digging though some of the original documents from when I bought the house and one of them, from the land registry, indicates that that ‘the walls fences hedges or boundaries marked with the letter ‘T’ inwards on the plan annexed hereto shall belong to the Property.’

The plan shows the ‘T’ inwards on my side of the boundary which suggests the boundary is mine and, as the concrete posts align with the boundary as it appears on the plan, I’m guessing that means I own the posts.

mc2fool
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393405

Postby mc2fool » March 7th, 2021, 6:00 pm

woodles wrote:The plan shows the ‘T’ inwards on my side of the boundary which suggests the boundary is mine and, as the concrete posts align with the boundary as it appears on the plan, I’m guessing that means I own the posts.

The boundary is an infinitesimally thin line between the two properties; it can't belong to either party. However, whatever physical artifacts there are to mark the boundary can be your side of the line and so belong to you.

Are the posts there in isolation? They're not (now or some time in the past) supporting a fence of some kind, even just a wire one?

woodles
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393412

Postby woodles » March 7th, 2021, 6:35 pm

The concrete posts have holes (3 per post at varying heights) through which wires are threaded. Prior to finding the land registry document I’d always assumed that the wire represented the boundary and that the posts were jointly owned i.e. I owned the half on my side of the wire and the neighbour owned the other half.

dspp
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393413

Postby dspp » March 7th, 2021, 6:35 pm

woodles wrote:Thanks for the responses, the problem is that I don’t trust my neighbour to respect the boundary.

I’ve been digging though some of the original documents from when I bought the house and one of them, from the land registry, indicates that that ‘the walls fences hedges or boundaries marked with the letter ‘T’ inwards on the plan annexed hereto shall belong to the Property.’

The plan shows the ‘T’ inwards on my side of the boundary which suggests the boundary is mine and, as the concrete posts align with the boundary as it appears on the plan, I’m guessing that means I own the posts.


Given what you say regarding the T, ordinarily you would indeed own those posts.

regards, dspp

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393415

Postby Mike4 » March 7th, 2021, 6:38 pm

mc2fool wrote:
woodles wrote:The plan shows the ‘T’ inwards on my side of the boundary which suggests the boundary is mine and, as the concrete posts align with the boundary as it appears on the plan, I’m guessing that means I own the posts.

The boundary is an infinitesimally thin line between the two properties; it can't belong to either party. However, whatever physical artifacts there are to mark the boundary can be your side of the line and so belong to you.

Are the posts there in isolation? They're not (now or some time in the past) supporting a fence of some kind, even just a wire one?


This is my understanding too. The boundary is the notional (and legal) line dividing the two parcels of land and it often (and ideally) has a fence at the line. A boundary fence is by convention, built on one side of the line and wholly on one pice of land or the other, in such a way as the "good face" of the fence faces the adjoining land. Said "good face" on a well-built fence is generally assumed to align perfectly with the actual legal boundary line. Your row of posts is probably a vestigial fence. Can you tell by looking at them which side would have been the "good face"?

Regardless of your neighbour's plans you probably have the right (barring any covenants preventing you) to construct your own fence on your own land regardless of your neighbour's views on the matter, hard up against the legal boundary line and facing your neighbour's land. This is probably a Really Good Idea at this point to avoid losing all evidence of exactly where the true boundary line lies. From what you say about your neighbour he may be planning to deliberately obliterate all evidence of the true boundary line in order later to construct his own new fence, a foot (or more!) further over onto what is in fact, your land. By which time you'll be in no position to argue where the line actually is, the scale of LR drawings and diagrams being far too small to be anything better than a rough guide. This has been known to happen in the past!

The old saying "good fences make good neighbours" for obvious reasons. I suggest you strengthen up the boundary marking one way or another before what you currently have is lost.

dspp
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393421

Postby dspp » March 7th, 2021, 6:48 pm

Mike4 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
woodles wrote:The plan shows the ‘T’ inwards on my side of the boundary which suggests the boundary is mine and, as the concrete posts align with the boundary as it appears on the plan, I’m guessing that means I own the posts.

The boundary is an infinitesimally thin line between the two properties; it can't belong to either party. However, whatever physical artifacts there are to mark the boundary can be your side of the line and so belong to you.

Are the posts there in isolation? They're not (now or some time in the past) supporting a fence of some kind, even just a wire one?


This is my understanding too. The boundary is the notional (and legal) line dividing the two parcels of land and it often (and ideally) has a fence at the line. A boundary fence is by convention, built on one side of the line and wholly on one pice of land or the other, in such a way as the "good face" of the fence faces the adjoining land. Said "good face" on a well-built fence is generally assumed to align perfectly with the actual legal boundary line. Your row of posts is probably a vestigial fence. Can you tell by looking at them which side would have been the "good face"?

Regardless of your neighbour's plans you probably have the right (barring any covenants preventing you) to construct your own fence on your own land regardless of your neighbour's views on the matter, hard up against the legal boundary line and facing your neighbour's land. This is probably a Really Good Idea at this point to avoid losing all evidence of exactly where the true boundary line lies. From what you say about your neighbour he may be planning to deliberately obliterate all evidence of the true boundary line in order later to construct his own new fence, a foot (or more!) further over onto what is in fact, your land. By which time you'll be in no position to argue where the line actually is, the scale of LR drawings and diagrams being far too small to be anything better than a rough guide. This has been known to happen in the past!

The old saying "good fences make good neighbours" for obvious reasons. I suggest you strengthen up the boundary marking one way or another before what you currently have is lost.


And quickly take a lot of photos.

(When I bought my current house I rebuilt my boundary fence to give back a couple of feet to my neighbour on one side. My predecessor had tried to steal my neighbour's land by building a fence practically diagonally across their garden. Looked a bit odd in a standard row of terraced houses to have one wonky fence in a row of straight ones)

regards, dspp

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393427

Postby scrumpyjack » March 7th, 2021, 7:06 pm

woodles wrote:The boundary between my property and my neighbours is marked by concrete boundary posts which have been there since the houses were built.
My neighbour wants to remove them but I'd prefer to keep them so it is clear where the boundary lies. Can he remove them without my permission?

I know that the issue of boundaries iS notorious grey area from a legal point of view but I'd welcome any advice.
TIA


In the absence of any other evidence, I would think the boundary is in the middle of the posts, so he would not have the right to remove your half of each boundary post even if it were possible to saw each post vertically down the middle!

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393431

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » March 7th, 2021, 7:15 pm

woodles wrote:The boundary between my property and my neighbours is marked by concrete boundary posts which have been there since the houses were built.
My neighbour wants to remove them but I'd prefer to keep them so it is clear where the boundary lies. Can he remove them without my permission?

I know that the issue of boundaries iS notorious grey area from a legal point of view but I'd welcome any advice.
TIA

The Land Registry keeps a record of the land you own. And for his land too. If your neighbour wants to remove the marker posts and wire they could reassure you that their actions aren't a prequel to a land snatch of any sort by recording the exact position of the marker on both title deeds. Failing which in your shoes I explain that I would be unwilling to consent to their removal and record so in writing. You'd be surprised how many people do actually land grab.

AiY

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393432

Postby staffordian » March 7th, 2021, 7:15 pm

woodles wrote:The boundary between my property and my neighbours is marked by concrete boundary posts which have been there since the houses were built.
My neighbour wants to remove them but I'd prefer to keep them so it is clear where the boundary lies. Can he remove them without my permission?

I know that the issue of boundaries iS notorious grey area from a legal point of view but I'd welcome any advice.
TIA

A key question might be why he wants to remove them.

Does he want to install a new fence?

If so, the evidence thus far points to the posts being yours. Therefore if he wants a new fence, perhaps he should erect it abutting the boundary, just on his side of the existing posts?

woodles
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393442

Postby woodles » March 7th, 2021, 7:30 pm

Many thanks for all the helpful responses, I’m definitely going to get a fence installed.

The reason I’m concerned is that a few years ago I overheard the neighbour talking to another guy about widening his drive, the other guy suggested that he could use some of my garden to do it. My neighbour is the type to just do something like that and worry about the consequences, if any, afterwards.

Fortunately, due to COVID 19, I’m working from home so can keep an eye on what’s happening.

Another question - if the neighbours, or their hired workmen, started to remove the boundary posts could we call the police on the basis that they were damaging/stealing our property? Or is this something the police would not want to get involved with?

TIA

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393450

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » March 7th, 2021, 8:03 pm

woodles wrote:Many thanks for all the helpful responses, I’m definitely going to get a fence installed.

The reason I’m concerned is that a few years ago I overheard the neighbour talking to another guy about widening his drive, the other guy suggested that he could use some of my garden to do it. My neighbour is the type to just do something like that and worry about the consequences, if any, afterwards.

Fortunately, due to COVID 19, I’m working from home so can keep an eye on what’s happening.

Another question - if the neighbours, or their hired workmen, started to remove the boundary posts could we call the police on the basis that they were damaging/stealing our property? Or is this something the police would not want to get involved with?

TIA

Take some photographs. Record where each marker is by measuring from a corner of your house. Or alternatively put a wooden stake at the rear the marker posts and record it by photograph. You could also move swiftly to install the new fence. It doesn't have to be the permanent fence you install. Just something that he cannot remove.

It does sound as if his mindset may be to take what he wants and bully his way into getting what he wants

AiY

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393451

Postby fisher » March 7th, 2021, 8:05 pm

Not sure about the police but I would definitely be prepared to film them doing it if they were to start.

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393458

Postby PinkDalek » March 7th, 2021, 8:40 pm

woodles wrote:... Another question - if the neighbours, or their hired workmen, started to remove the boundary posts could we call the police on the basis that they were damaging/stealing our property? Or is this something the police would not want to get involved with?


I’d imagine The Police would consider it a Civil matter. You’d therefore, conceivably, need to consider the costs of obtaining an interim injunction, if that’s the correct procedure nowadays, and I’m most certainly not a lawyer but I would imagine most would suggest this a route that most would seek to avoid.

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393467

Postby AF62 » March 7th, 2021, 10:00 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
woodles wrote:... Another question - if the neighbours, or their hired workmen, started to remove the boundary posts could we call the police on the basis that they were damaging/stealing our property? Or is this something the police would not want to get involved with?


I’d imagine The Police would consider it a Civil matter. You’d therefore, conceivably, need to consider the costs of obtaining an interim injunction, if that’s the correct procedure nowadays, and I’m most certainly not a lawyer but I would imagine most would suggest this a route that most would seek to avoid.


The police might claim (and wish) it was a civil matter but damaging property (removing the boundary posts belonging to woodles) is certainly a criminal offence.

However persuading the police to do something and not fob you off is another thing.

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393469

Postby PinkDalek » March 7th, 2021, 10:13 pm

Yes, that was rather my point.

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393516

Postby woodles » March 8th, 2021, 9:01 am

Thanks for the replies, lots of good suggestions, much appreciated.
If the neighbour does try to remove the posts I’ll point out that he’s damaging my property and threaten to call the police, the threat alone might be enough to stop him.

I’ve taken lots of photos of the boundary and I think the suggestion to film the work is a good one too and I’ll also photograph the vehicles used by the workmen

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Re: Removal of concrete boundary posts

#393528

Postby Arborbridge » March 8th, 2021, 9:25 am

I replaced a fence recently and the boundary was marked by concrete posts, probably the same type as yours. According to the fencer, the legal boundary is defined by a line running through those holes you mention - but that's just based on a fencer's years of experience!

What I did in this case was keep the fence posts in but had the two end ones sawn off at ground level. They are then a permanent witness as to where the original boundary line was drawn as built.
The problem with land registry charts is that they do not define the position well enough, and from what I hear from my solicitor, any inspector who tries to resolve a dispute would go by what ever original physical evidence there is on the ground.

That's why I had the posts left but sawn off at ground level.

All this depends on goodwill between neighbours, so it's fraught with diplomatic angst. I backed out of one house we were keen on because when I spoke with the neighbour about his proposed extension potentially undermining my boundary wall (which was also an earth retaining wall) he was very evasive about responsibility. Much later, the estate agent commented "you were right to get out of that one".

Arb.


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