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Graveyard Wars

including wills and probate
Elvisbarney
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Graveyard Wars

#410961

Postby Elvisbarney » May 11th, 2021, 9:10 am

25 years ago I purchased a family burial plot (council owned) but, due to convenience in reducing cost, the deed was signed by my brother and who now boasts and claims legal ownership and exclusivity.
Since then two burials - mother (2013) and father (2018). The headstone was purchased by me, including all stone-mason related costs.
I believe I have a legal claim to ownership of the headstone.
A simmering family dispute then came to the surface, leading to my brother threatening to remove my father’s inscription from the headstone. A personal appeal I made to the priest who carried out the funeral ceremony averted any action on this occasion.
However in December 2020, having visited the grave to pay respects pre-Christmas (I now live 90 miles away), my brother sent me a letter demanding that I never place flowers on the grave without his prior consent. (Flowers were placed on the headstone in the vase provided, not the grave).

Due to lockdown travel restrictions it was not until May 2021 that I visited again, only to find the heart-breaking site of my father’s inscription and personal details wholly obliterated by black, industrial strength tape.My mother’s details were left untouched.
Fortunately and with much difficulty I was finally able to remove the tape without any apparent criminal damage being caused by the application of the tape.

Having failed in this regard, I know my brother (in his sixties) well enough to suspect he will seek to damage by other means, even permanently.

My question is this please: what legal options do I have in order to eliminate this satanic-type behaviour and modern-day cancel-culture?

bungeejumper
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#410966

Postby bungeejumper » May 11th, 2021, 9:24 am

No expert here, but I suspect that the answers will lie among the rules of the cemetery owners, which can vary greatly. :( There's some detail in this link (https://www.memorialsofdistinction.co.u ... on-a-grave), but it isn't awfully reassuring, I'm afraid. Another appeal to the priest might be the best way to move forward.

I've had some pretty dreadful fallings-out with my sister since our parents died - she has asserted all kinds of rights that she doesn't have - but nothing remotely on your scale. My sincere condolences on your choice of sibling. :|

BJ

Dod101
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#410997

Postby Dod101 » May 11th, 2021, 11:31 am

I have no answer whatever to the problem which must be heartbreaking in the extreme. If anyone is to do anything about the defacing of the headstone they will first need proof of the perpetrator. Everything points to the brother but that is not proof. It surely ought to be possible to get some sort of restraining order on him but I cannot see the police being very keen to get involved. Can you bring a private prosecution or at least get a Court order for him to desist? If he denies any knowledge of course without proof that may not get you very far.

The guy is obviously sick in the head so you could try feeling sorry for him. I doubt that legal ownership is going to make much difference but does he actually have the piece of paper conferring title on him despite the fact that you say you purchased the plot? Could you try revisiting that with the Council?

There are of course usually other factors which are not posted about this sort of thing but if I were the OP I would consult a solicitor and see if they can help in getting an order against the brother, having consulted the Council first of course.

Dod

Elvisbarney
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411007

Postby Elvisbarney » May 11th, 2021, 12:28 pm

Thanks all.
Yes I appreciate proof of actual perpetrator is a problem in the absence of admission.
However, the previous threat coupled with a written letter outlining intent and then an actual defacing of the father’s title but not the mother’s, should perhaps be sufficient to pursue along the civil if not criminal route? Additionally, the tape-covering was methodically measured and applied with care, not the work of a random grave vandal.
Perhaps the old “Cease and Desist” solicitor letter might rein his neck in?

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411019

Postby dionaeamuscipula » May 11th, 2021, 1:01 pm

Elvisbarney wrote:25 years ago I purchased a family burial plot (council owned) but, due to convenience in reducing cost, the deed was signed by my brother and who now boasts and claims legal ownership and exclusivity.
My question is this please: what legal options do I have in order to eliminate this satanic-type behaviour and modern-day cancel-culture?


Rhetorical questions:

What are you *actually* wanting to achieve? For your brother to act "reasonably", or to gain control of the plot? How will your actions stop your brother from acting in a way that you see as being against your interests? Was it intended that other family members would be buried in the plot?

How far are you prepared to go? Legal action to cure the ownership position may be possible but is likely to be expensive. And to what extent do you wish to keep relations with your brother in place?

What documentation do you have in respect of the original transaction?

DM

Elvisbarney
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411081

Postby Elvisbarney » May 11th, 2021, 3:57 pm

Dionaeamuscipula-the only objective I have is to prevent any further desecration of our parents’ grave, a reasonable expectation for all decent, ordinary people.
Trouble is that 25 years ago it was cheaper to use my brother’s name on the grave deed as he resided in the Council area of the cemetery. Both parents were subsequently buried in the plot without the slightest objection from their son, although of course he paid not a penny towards funeral costs.
He can keep the plot, although again he never paid a penny for the rights. The cash I handed to him to pay- foolish I know but 25 years ago legal awareness that a family-member would turn rogue was not a consideration.

I am getting the impression legal remedy is a futile option in this case- seems you can deface a grave you own and defile the memory of loved ones and, as long as you don’t break the weak cemetery regs, then any satanist can prevail.
Time to ring a priest, methinks...Karma is a delicious feeling when it happens.

88V8
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411200

Postby 88V8 » May 11th, 2021, 10:55 pm

You could apply for an exhumation license to move your father to a new grave.
Potential problem is that the owner of the existing site has to agree. https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-an-exhumation-licence

Then you could purchase another plot near you where presumably you also might one day lie.

Or indeed you might choose your own garden where you could immediately erect a stone to your father even though his body is not there. After all, he is not in his body any more, he is in your heart and you can remember him where and how you wish.
Then your brother can do what he wants and bad luck to him.

V8

servodude
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411211

Postby servodude » May 11th, 2021, 11:33 pm

Elvisbarney wrote:Time to ring a priest, methinks...Karma is a delicious feeling when it happens.


...or the paper local to the area?

They generally love these "unknown thugs" desecrating stuff stories
- would be quite awkward for anyone to re-offend in the face of public disdain

-sd

Clitheroekid
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411219

Postby Clitheroekid » May 12th, 2021, 12:06 am

Elvisbarney wrote:My question is this please: what legal options do I have in order to eliminate this satanic-type behaviour and modern-day cancel-culture?

Firstly, my sympathy for having such a deranged brother, and for what must be a very distressing situation.

Unfortunately, as you've evidently realised, the legal situation is extremely complicated, and taking any legal action would be expensive and risky.

However, there would certainly be an argument that as you paid for the grave plot you are the `beneficial owner' of it, and although your brother registered it in his name he did so (albeit unknowingly) as trustee for yourself.

As such, he is bound to act in accordance with your wishes, and as in legal parlance he holds the plot as a `bare trustee' (i.e. there are no specific terms of the trust) you could legally insist on him transferring the legal title to yourself.

If you became legal owner of the plot then you could - at least in theory - instruct him that he could only visit and tend to the plot on condition that he did not in any way desecrate the grave. If he were to disobey this instruction he would be guilty of trespass, and you could then seek an injunction against him - a court order forbidding him to visit (or at least commit any damage to) the grave.

This would all, of course, depend on your being able to prove that you had actually paid for it in the first place.

Unfortunately, although this is all very well in legal theory actually implementing the transfer of ownership and then enforcing your legal rights against your brother would clearly not be an easy task.

Perhaps a more practical solution would be to advise the local council, who own the cemetery, of the situation. Your brother's entry into the cemetery to desecrate the grave would also be trespass against them, and they would have the right to exclude him, or at least warn him that if there was any repetition of his appalling behaviour they would do so.

Elvisbarney
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411229

Postby Elvisbarney » May 12th, 2021, 6:33 am

Thanks sincerely for all contributions.
Clearly a graveyard smash!
Time to dust oneself down, upwards and onwards.

supremetwo
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411898

Postby supremetwo » May 14th, 2021, 12:14 pm

Elvisbarney wrote:Thanks all.
Yes I appreciate proof of actual perpetrator is a problem in the absence of admission.
However, the previous threat coupled with a written letter outlining intent and then an actual defacing of the father’s title but not the mother’s, should perhaps be sufficient to pursue along the civil if not criminal route? Additionally, the tape-covering was methodically measured and applied with care, not the work of a random grave vandal.
Perhaps the old “Cease and Desist” solicitor letter might rein his neck in?

Perhaps a copy of this?
https://a.msn.com/01/en-gb/BB1gHJPZ?ocid=winp-se
A woman has been jailed after vandalising the grave of a young diabetic man with the words: “Ha Ha Ha Liam. Looks like diabetes won again.” ----
Julius was jailed for eight weeks at Bristol Magistrates’ Court over damage to the headstone at Westerleigh Crematorium in Bristol.

JohnB
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#411915

Postby JohnB » May 14th, 2021, 1:12 pm

Depending on your religious beliefs, the only person being harmed here is the OP, the dead having no feelings. As that's clearly the intention of the estranged brother, rising to the bait will only increase the stress and harm. Installing a memorial plaque nearer home, or sponsoring a bench might be a better focus for your concern of your parents' memory.

I would still report the desecration to the churchwardens, as they are in a much better position to keep an eye on the grave.

Avantegarde
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#412674

Postby Avantegarde » May 17th, 2021, 11:19 am

Speaking as the owner of a graveyard plot containing both my parents, I would first talk to the registrar or administrator of the graveyard. They will probably have rules (as suggested above) regulating the behaviour of visitors and plot owners. The fact your brother is the apparent owner of the plot will not give him carte blanche to do what he likes with either the plot or the headstone.

Elvisbarney
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#412843

Postby Elvisbarney » May 17th, 2021, 10:49 pm

Thanks Avantegarde- I did speak by phone to a chap at the cemetery office, but I suspect he wasn’t the top banana, merely giving an opinion rather than precise legal niceties. I will recontact.

Further to Clitheroekid if you revisit this one:-
I note your earlier comments and, although I would struggle to prove I purchased the plot, I still retain the original certificate and purchase receipt which has been in my possession for approx 25 years. My brother never once in that period questioned ownership or requested production of the documents, nor did he raise any objections at the time of either funeral, perhaps adding support to your trustee rationale?
The cemetery staff inform me the plot is now joint-owned by my brother and another who they refuse to name due to Data Protection ( I suspect it must be his common-law), further complicating matters!

Also, I AM able to prove payment for the headstone of the grave. Do you consider that I could assert any ownership rights to the headstone to prevent him from defacing it, or could he simply choose to have it removed or replaced?

Thanks in advance.

Clitheroekid
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#413109

Postby Clitheroekid » May 19th, 2021, 1:33 am

Elvisbarney wrote:Further to Clitheroekid if you revisit this one:-
I note your earlier comments and, although I would struggle to prove I purchased the plot, I still retain the original certificate and purchase receipt which has been in my possession for approx 25 years.

Am I right in assuming that it's your brother's name that appears on the certificate and purchase receipt?

It's very often the case that there is no paper evidence to prove something, and many cases that go to court are decided on the basis of written statements supported by a formal statement of truth - the modern equivalent of swearing an affidavit.

So in this case you could sign such a statement to the effect that it was you who paid for the plot, so that your brother holds the title as a bare trustee, and that would - or certainly should - be accepted by a court (or more realistically the cemetery authority) as conclusive evidence.

Of course your brother could in theory sign a similar statement stating the exact opposite, but he knows the truth, and when it comes down to it most people are not willing to commit perjury.

Also, I AM able to prove payment for the headstone of the grave. Do you consider that I could assert any ownership rights to the headstone to prevent him from defacing it, or could he simply choose to have it removed or replaced?

Legally the headstone probably still belongs to you, though your brother might claim that it was a gift from you to him. It's arguable, therefore, that defacing it is an act of criminal damage, though I really can't see the plod taking any interest.

And in civil law it's an act of trespass, theoretically remediable by an injunction and/or damages. But would you seriously consider taking your brother to court over it?

9873210
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#413114

Postby 9873210 » May 19th, 2021, 5:00 am

Elvisbarney wrote:25 years ago I purchased a family burial plot (council owned) but, due to convenience in reducing cost, the deed was signed by my brother and who now boasts and claims legal ownership and exclusivity.

I am not exactly sure what this means, but my best guess is that your brother got a discount (e.g. a residency discount) which you did not qualify for.

I wonder if the council might take umbrage that you avoiding a higher fee. And whether it might be unwise to provide sworn testimony that this was a straw man purchase.

Elvisbarney
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#413130

Postby Elvisbarney » May 19th, 2021, 7:24 am

Thanks again Clitheroekid

9873210-
Yes, at the time of purchasing the plot my brother lived in the council area, as did my parents. I did not.
Ideally, my parents’ name would have been entered on the certificate, but even broaching the subject of death/ final resting place etc with them in those days was never going to be top of the agenda.
(I’m not even heading down there - cremation for me, as detailed in my will!).
So, yes, perfectly reasonable and legal in my view for my brother to allow his name on the documentation.

Avantegarde
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#413373

Postby Avantegarde » May 19th, 2021, 11:09 pm

A quick browse on the internet took me to this: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1977/204/made The 1977 Local Authorities' Cemeteries Order makes it an offence to (among other things) "wilfully interfere with any grave or vault, any tombstone or other memorial, or any flowers or plants on any such matter". Maximum penalty of £100. You might consider drawing this to the attention of your brother and the relevant cemetery authorities.

Elvisbarney
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Re: Graveyard Wars

#413539

Postby Elvisbarney » May 20th, 2021, 1:33 pm

Avantegarde, thank you, that was just the kind of nugget I was looking for. I always thought there must be more redress to this than the council operative at the cemetery simply adopting the “nothing to see here, move along” approach.

Thanks to all who have contributed, I feel heartened that there is support out there from people who still appreciate common decency.


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