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Discovery of Wills and Assets

including wills and probate
GeoffF100
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Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411820

Postby GeoffF100 » May 14th, 2021, 8:08 am

My will names the executor as a major charity. Currently, it is lodged with a local firm of solicitors. There is a copy of the will in my house, with a note saying where the original is held, along with my financial records. If my house burned down killing me and destroying its contents, there would be no way of locating my will or my investments (currently worth about 10x the value of my physical possessions.)

Citizens Advice suggests lodging the will with the Principal Registry of the Family Division:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/famil ... eep-a-will

More information here:

https://www.makeawill.co.uk/page-search ... e-109.html

Would the Principal Registry of the Family Division automatically be searched?

What can do I do to ensure that the executor has an up to date list of my investments? I could set up a file listing the accounts on the cloud, with read access to anyone with the link. Perhaps that link could be included in my will? Is there a better method?

Dod101
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411821

Postby Dod101 » May 14th, 2021, 8:19 am

Does no family member/friend know about this? Would they not try the solicitors? This is not a unique scenario, in fact it could probably apply to me as well and to many of us. The family know who my solicitors are. As for investments/assets I leave it to them to sort it out.

The Principal Registry of the Family Division sounds like an English construct so I would not know. Wold this be usual?

Dod

GeoffF100
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411828

Postby GeoffF100 » May 14th, 2021, 8:49 am

Dod101 wrote:Does no family member/friend know about this? Would they not try the solicitors?

I have a brother and a sister, both in poor health and living a long way away. If my house burned down killing me and destroying its contents, they would not know about it. I expect that someone would find out who owned the house from the Land Registry, and identify me from dental records.

My will might be found by mailing local solicitors. The will names my brother and sister. They know that I have assets worth far more than my modest detached house, but they do not know the details. I have over a dozen bank accounts, for example, and they are replaced whenever they mature.

Come to think of it, I must make sure that the executors have details of my home insurance.

Dod101
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411831

Postby Dod101 » May 14th, 2021, 9:06 am

GeoffF100 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Does no family member/friend know about this? Would they not try the solicitors?

I have a brother and a sister, both in poor health and living a long way away. If my house burned down killing me and destroying its contents, they would not know about it. I expect that someone would find out who owned the house from the Land Registry, and identify me from dental records.

My will might be found by mailing local solicitors. The will names my brother and sister. They know that I have assets worth far more than my modest detached house, but they do not know the details. I have over a dozen bank accounts, for example, and they are replaced whenever they mature.

Come to think of it, I must make sure that the executors have details of my home insurance.


You are probably right to be thinking about this sort of thing but quite honestly, although I now live on my own, I do not spend too much time on it. Just as a matter of interest why did you appoint a charity as your executor? I have my son and daughter and my solicitor as joint executors. I do not think either of my children would be willing to take it on themselves.

In your position I would I think let my neighbours know who to contact (the solicitors) because the police would be likely to ask around. The old guy next to me died on one snowy February evening with no family nearby and the police came to my door, although I could not in fact help.

Dod

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411835

Postby uspaul666 » May 14th, 2021, 9:23 am

You could buy a fire safe?

JohnB
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411839

Postby JohnB » May 14th, 2021, 9:41 am

What can do I do to ensure that the executor has an up to date list of my investments? I could set up a file listing the accounts on the cloud, with read access to anyone with the link. Perhaps that link could be included in my will? Is there a better method?


I'd send your executor a piece of paper with the names of all organisations you have dealings with. Better than worrying about link rot. Constant churn in that list is probably unwise. I'd also give them lots of informal advice on how you want your affairs wound up.

So very few people are found dead in a burnt-out house that I that I'd not worry about that scenario. But if you do, then get a fire proof safe with a metal plate inside naming your executor, and leave it unlocked.

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411842

Postby stewamax » May 14th, 2021, 9:50 am

uspaul666 wrote:You could buy a fire safe?

I use a fire safe ('tub') for insurance documents, house deeds (yes - even if the property is registered they often contain useful information on boundaries and so on), a 'what to to when I die' document listing major short-term things (e.g. make sure that my car's insurers will still cover someone else on the policy driving it) and so on.
But I also use a media chest - a small specialist fireproof' chest with very thick walls that contains the last external disk backups of my various PCs and a two printed lists: passwords and list of investments. A normal fireproof chest will not protect hard disks from heat sufficiently.
It is also sufficiently small to be carried out easily in the event of fire, and since it is easy to carry it is hidden - but hidden somewhere easily accessible and known to my family members.

gryffron
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411843

Postby gryffron » May 14th, 2021, 9:52 am

uspaul666 wrote:You could buy a fire safe?

That still doesn't help unless someone knows where to look for it.

According to this you can register it with the Probate service for £20. That sounds a useful solution.

I also have an "assets" spreadsheet on my computer. Listing all the account numbers. Although the values are usually way out of date, it's still a useful starting point, and referenced from my will. Which has attached a (now very) out of date printout of said file as a starting point. Of course that wouldn't help in a fire, but fatal house fires are very rare these days.

[edit after reading stewamax's post]You don't need passwords dealing with accounts in probate. I've done it recently. They don't even ask. Probably best NOT to write these down.[/edit]

Gryff

Dod101
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411852

Postby Dod101 » May 14th, 2021, 10:15 am

gryffron wrote:
uspaul666 wrote:You could buy a fire safe?

That still doesn't help unless someone knows where to look for it.

According to this you can register it with the Probate service for £20. That sounds a useful solution.

I also have an "assets" spreadsheet on my computer. Listing all the account numbers. Although the values are usually way out of date, it's still a useful starting point, and referenced from my will. Which has attached a (now very) out of date printout of said file as a starting point. Of course that wouldn't help in a fire, but fatal house fires are very rare these days.

[edit after reading stewamax's post]You don't need passwords dealing with accounts in probate. I've done it recently. They don't even ask. Probably best NOT to write these down.[/edit]

Gryff


Personally I think there is an awful lot of needless worrying goes on. I use one bank, two platforms for investment, some paper certificates and the usual N S & I stuff. Given a sight of the death certificate I think these institutions will provide all that is required. House and contents are fairly obvious.

Dod

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411855

Postby JohnB » May 14th, 2021, 10:18 am

The fire investigation team will be looking for fireproof storage. There were 316 fire-related deaths in the UK in 2018/19, and I expect most of those were children and in fewer actual incidents, so it really is a small risk.

You need a balance between ease of discovery by officialdom and prevention of exploitation by burglars. Multiple copies of a list of financial institutions, without account numbers and values, should be sufficient for an executor but of little use to a thief. You could scrawl that on a metal plate.

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411874

Postby GeoffF100 » May 14th, 2021, 11:17 am

Dod101 wrote:Just as a matter of interest why did you appoint a charity as your executor?

My brother and sister will both get fixed sums, totalling about 10% of my estate (about the value of my house). The charity gets whatever is left. The charity will appoint a solicitor to do the job at an agreed price. If I appointed a solicitor myself, their charges prove to might be unreasonably large (in thirty years time perhaps).

Dod101
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411879

Postby Dod101 » May 14th, 2021, 11:24 am

GeoffF100 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Just as a matter of interest why did you appoint a charity as your executor?

My brother and sister will both get fixed sums, totalling about 10% of my estate (about the value of my house). The charity gets whatever is left. The charity will appoint a solicitor to do the job at an agreed price. If I appointed a solicitor myself, their charges prove to might be unreasonably large (in thirty years time perhaps).


Thanks. I was not prying just interested. Your arrangement will also save any hassle from the charity as well re its share, the residue.

Dod

GeoffF100
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411882

Postby GeoffF100 » May 14th, 2021, 11:32 am

gryffron wrote:According to this you can register it with the Probate service for £20. That sounds a useful solution.

I also have an "assets" spreadsheet on my computer. Listing all the account numbers. Although the values are usually way out of date, it's still a useful starting point, and referenced from my will. Which has attached a (now very) out of date printout of said file as a starting point. Of course that wouldn't help in a fire, but fatal house fires are very rare these days.

That may be the same service with the same charge. This is all very confusing.

I have read that you must not attach other documents to your will. The issue is that the will must be exactly as it was when it was witnessed. If the will has staple holes in it, that can also cause problems in establishing that the will is complete, i.e. that an original attachment has not been removed.

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411890

Postby GeoffF100 » May 14th, 2021, 11:48 am

JohnB wrote:
What can do I do to ensure that the executor has an up to date list of my investments? I could set up a file listing the accounts on the cloud, with read access to anyone with the link. Perhaps that link could be included in my will? Is there a better method?

I'd send your executor a piece of paper with the names of all organisations you have dealings with. Better than worrying about link rot. Constant churn in that list is probably unwise. I'd also give them lots of informal advice on how you want your affairs wound up.

I need to have lots of bank accounts to stay within the FSCS compensation limit. My term accounts are arranged in a five year ladder. An account matures roughly every six months, and has to be renewed. The best interest rate for new savers is almost always better than the rates offered for renewal. Churn is inevitable, unless I am willing to accept 0.2% with NS&I.

I cannot give a big charity informal advice and expect it to be remembered in thirty years time. I also cannot rely on pieces of paper surviving until they are needed. I have not spoken to anyone at the charity for a long time, and plan to call them again once I have got my ducks in a row. I would like a fool proof system if I can find one.

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411924

Postby Lootman » May 14th, 2021, 2:32 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:I need to have lots of bank accounts to stay within the FSCS compensation limit. My term accounts are arranged in a five year ladder. An account matures roughly every six months, and has to be renewed. The best interest rate for new savers is almost always better than the rates offered for renewal. Churn is inevitable, unless I am willing to accept 0.2% with NS&I.

I cannot give a big charity informal advice and expect it to be remembered in thirty years time. I also cannot rely on pieces of paper surviving until they are needed. I have not spoken to anyone at the charity for a long time, and plan to call them again once I have got my ducks in a row. I would like a fool proof system if I can find one.

I can tell you my approach, although based on what you have written you probably won't be able to relate to it since it is quite different to yours. Also I have a wife and children, who are the executors and beneficiaries. Sounds like in your case your closest relatives are siblings? Anyway:

1) I am getting too old to keep jumping between bank accounts all the time to get slightly more interest or to worry too much about FSCS and bank failures. I have for some years been simplifying my finances in terms of number of accounts. A small number of accounts with top institutions that are stable is a lot easier, and potentially cheaper, for an executor than a dozen or more churned accounts.

2) I was always advised never to make a charity a residue beneficiary, but only leave them fixed sums. I am also not sure I would trust a charity to do as quick or efficient an execution of probate as someone who knows me and my situation.

3) I see that registration was recommended above but personally I do not like to register documents. Neither my will nor my power of attorney are registered. My thinking is that it makes them harder to change if registered. As things are I can invalidate my will or POA simply by destroying the document. (Of course they might burn as well, hence your concern; I have a safe).

4) A hand-written note given to my executors and beneficiaries, listing my accounts and updated as necessary, will help when the time comes. This can also include an annotation of gifts made, again to aid probate. You might choose to provide PINS or passwords if you think that will help and you trust the parties concerned.

5) Assuming your siblings are similar in age, I might be looking beyond them in terms of beneficiaries since statistically they may not outlive you by that much, or at all. Do they have children of an age that could handle and benefit from your bequests? That might save two lots of inheritance tax, for instance.

Dod101
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411929

Postby Dod101 » May 14th, 2021, 3:01 pm

I agree with Lootman's comments re charities but the OP has arranged things differently from the way I or probably he would do. In this case it seems that the charity is the main as well as being the residuary beneficiary to the extent that the charity is the executor. I have left money to several charities but they are named discreet amounts. If a charity were to be a residuary beneficiary they would seek details of the entire accounts of the estate and the Will to ensure that the whole thing had been handled in accord with the Will, at least that is the danger. In this case though, as Executor, they will have full access as a matter of course.

Having an institution of any sort as the executor is I think undesirable but that was not what was being asked.#

Dod

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#411933

Postby GeoffF100 » May 14th, 2021, 3:24 pm

My situation is a lot different Lootman. I will not have problems with Inheritance tax, because the amount that I am leaving to my brother and sister is under the limit. The amount that I am leaving to charity will be way over the limit, but currently is tax free.

The probate will involve a lot of work because of the number accounts. Simplifying that would cost me nearly as much as my estate would pay for the probate every year. I do not know how long I will live, or what will happen to the markets (or taxes), but I we are talking £millions. I am happiest leaving that to a professional, with the oversight of another professional.

My sister has three daughters, but I have not seen them for years. They are prosperous and far away. My brother has an adopted son and daughter. I do not even hear about them. Suffice it to say that they are not very deserving.

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#412060

Postby GeoffF100 » May 15th, 2021, 8:39 am

Another helpful link for the Principal Registry of the Family Division:

https://www.human-law.co.uk/_cmroot/hum ... citor.aspx

That registry should be routinely searched:

https://www.makeawill.co.uk/page-search ... e-109.html

For £20 that seems sensible.

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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#412063

Postby scrumpyjack » May 15th, 2021, 9:10 am

Hargreaves Lansdown provide a template for keeping a register of your assets and information for your executor.
It is quite useful as a checklist.
https://www.hl.co.uk/news/articles/intr ... r-finances

Perhaps keep it up to date and let your siblings know where it is?

GeoffF100
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Re: Discovery of Wills and Assets

#412087

Postby GeoffF100 » May 15th, 2021, 11:16 am

scrumpyjack wrote:Hargreaves Lansdown provide a template for keeping a register of your assets and information for your executor.
It is quite useful as a checklist.

https://www.hl.co.uk/news/articles/intr ... r-finances

Perhaps keep it up to date and let your siblings know where it is?

The checklist is food for thought. If I am going to have a read only link to a folder in the cloud in my will, I need to consider carefully how much information I want to disclose in that way.

I hope that I am being unduly cynical here, but my siblings would profit enormously if my will is never found (but my financial assets are). If it is found, my house will probably cover their inheritance.


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